Why can't Lutherans accept the Eucharist as a RC mass?

[Nine_Two]

True. But that still would mean that simple separation from communion with Rome is not the deciding factor as to whether a member of another church can receive.

From the Roman side, no.

 

[Nine_Two]

What I find curious is a preoccupation by some to absolutely limit/ restrict access to Christ in the most holy Sacrament. It is as if they don’t want others to benefit from the forgiveness of sins and eternal life that Christ invites us to receive in his life-giving Body and Blood. One poster goes even further and declares that Jesus is not even present at Lutheran altars. While some Lutherans forbid their members from even taking holy Communion at other Lutheran churches.

What is the motivation for this? Where does Scripture support such thinking?

That quote is certainly encouraging everyone to partake but it isn’t saying it should be given out willy-nilly.

Someone quoted the Didache earlier in this thread on limitations to who gets communion there, and while it was correctly pointed out that the quote was meaning non-Christians, it does establish a precedent for a closed communion and not letting just anyone come to Communion.

At least in the Orthodox Communion all are welcome to join us, and therefore receive the Eucharist. That not everyone does join our church and receive is not our fault.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Nice quote but short … Is more said about it?

I posted this on page 3 from the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue: ‘The Apostolicity of the Church’

62.Lutheran and Catholic Christians confess together that in the Eucharist the body and blood of the Lord are really received, either for salvation or for condemnation (cf. 1 Corinthians 11:27-29). They confess that the believing reception of the eucharistic bread and wine gives personal union with Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior They also agree that the efficacy of believers reception of the Lord cannot be measured by human standards but belongs to the sphere of the free and humanly uncontrollable action of God.
raadvankerken.nl/fman/3246.pdf

 

[EvangelCatholic]

That quote is certainly encouraging everyone to partake but it isn’t saying it should be given out willy-nilly.

Someone quoted the Didache earlier in this thread on limitations to who gets communion there, and while it was correctly pointed out that the quote was meaning non-Christians, it does establish a precedent for a closed communion and not letting just anyone come to Communion.

At least in the Orthodox Communion all are welcome to join us, and therefore receive the Eucharist. That not everyone does join our church and receive is not our fault.

I thought Orthodox Christians practiced closed communion; glad to see I am wrong.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Our Lutheran denomination is even more restricted than Lutherans/Catholics. We don’t even let other Lutherans into communion. This is a mixed bag of course.

On one hand doctrinal purity is extremely important to our synod, I mean really important. That’s good because you know what you’re getting when you step into a WELS church.

On the other hand there is really no doctrinal difference that I can think of that’s very big between us and the conservative LCMS folks. At least nothing big enough for separate communion. Seems pretty insular and closed off.

Sadly, it means my mother and I cannot commune at the same altar. I am certain that my LCMS pastor would allow her to receive, but I know that my Mom’s pastor would not permit me to do so. Sure it hurts, but I do understand - their house, their rules.

 

[nickybr38]

But we are NOT in communion, so isn’t it a false gesture to receive communion together when we are so clearly still divided?

I would never receive communion in a church other than my own. Why?

1. I am not Lutheran. Receiving in a Lutheran church WOULD give the false impression that I AM Lutheran. I’m not.
2. My Church has asked me not to and I will respect that. I wouldn’t have chosen this Church if I didn’t trust it to guide me.
3. I do not accept Lutheran teachings. Why on EARTH would I profess to be in communion with a church I don’t agree with?

I do not understand this push and desire to receive communion in churches outside your own. I really don’t. When I was Protestant I NEVER received communion, anywhere, because I never joined any one church and I always felt it was disingenuous to profess unity when I was not in union.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I thought Orthodox Christians practiced closed communion; glad to see I am wrong.

I don’t know if it is the same sense…

I think you can commune from the blessed bread but not partake of the Eucharist (Different from the blessed bread) unless you are Orthodox.

Hopefully Nine-Two can help me out.

 

[benjohnson]

I thought Orthodox Christians practiced closed communion; glad to see I am wrong.

Nine Two said: “At least in the Orthodox Communion all are welcome to join us, and therefore receive the Eucharist. That not everyone does join our church and receive is not our fault.”

I think you missed what he was saying - ‘Join’ being used for a lifetime of discipleship, not just for just a visitation.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Anyone acquainted with the book: ‘Changing Churches: An Orthodox, Catholic, and Lutheran Theological Conversation’? It is written by two former Lutheran theologians who recently converted; one to the Catholic Church, the other to the Orthodox Church. Part of the exodus of Lutherans to Catholicism is that the differences are considered too minor to remain separate from the Church of Rome.

 

[Nine_Two]

I thought Orthodox Christians practiced closed communion; glad to see I am wrong.

We do, but everyone is welcome to join our communion, which was my point.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine Two said: “At least in the Orthodox Communion all are welcome to join us, and therefore receive the Eucharist. That not everyone does join our church and receive is not our fault.”

I think you missed what he was saying - ‘Join’ being used for a lifetime of discipleship, not just for just a visitation.

Exactly. You must be one of us but the bar to entry is not all that high. If one accepts our teachings of what the Eucharist is, then you are by extension accepting that the Church has authority both on that matter and the teachings and interpretation of the gospel.

If one does not accept our teachings on the Eucharist, then what is it to them that they are not allowed to partake? It is just bread and wine given to you on a spoon used by dozens (perhaps hundreds) of others by a man in a fancy costume.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Exactly. You must be one of us but the bar to entry is not all that high. If one accepts our teachings of what the Eucharist is, then you are by extension accepting that the Church has authority both on that matter and the teachings and interpretation of the gospel.

If one does not accept our teachings on the Eucharist, then what is it to them that they are not allowed to partake? It is just bread and wine given to you on a spoon used by dozens (perhaps hundreds) of others by a man in a fancy costume.

Sorry for the length:

“The Mystery of the Church: The Holy Eucharist in the Life of the Church.”

Orthodox and Lutherans recognize the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist as the “fulfillment of the Christians’ participation in the life of Christ and his church through eating his body and drinking his blood in the Holy Eucharist” (Duràu Statement §11). They also affirm that the Eucharist and the believers’ participation in it remain a mystery that transcends human understanding. The Holy Eucharist is the Sacrament of the New Covenant instituted by Christ himself (Mt 26, 27f; par.). As such it is an indispensable part of the life of the Church, which is the body of Christ. Through Baptism the believer is born again and sealed with the Holy Spirit (for Orthodox, the seal is given through Chrismation). In the Eucharist, the believers receive the body and blood of the Lord as a healing and spiritual nourishment of their souls and bodies and experience their membership in the Body of Christ. In this way, believers receive forgiveness of their sins and the gift of eternal life. The Eucharist presupposes the confession of the one faith of the church and strengthens the believers’ union with Christ and their union and communion with each other both locally and universally (Mk 14,22-26; 1Cor 10,16f).

d. Orthodox and Lutherans agree that the Eucharist is also a gift of communion granted to us by Christ. In this communion we are fully united with Him and with the members of His Body. The “how”of the mystery remains inexplicable, but the “what” is clearly confessed in faith and thanksgiving. As John of Damascus says, “… if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit” (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 4, 13).

1. Lutheran and Orthodox traditions each stress proper preparation for participation in the Eucharist. For both this involves preparatory prayers and Confession and forgiveness of sins, which for Orthodox is the sacrament of penance. For Orthodox, preparation also includes fasting; for Lutherans fasting is not required but often practiced. Both agree that the Eucharist must be administered properly/canonically and only by ordained ministers.

1. Lutherans and Orthodox take the Lord’s words “this is my body; this is my blood” (Mt 26,27f, par.) literally. They believe that in the Eucharist the bread and wine become Christ’s body and blood to be consumed by the communicants. How this happens is regarded by both as a profound and real mystery. In order to approach that mystery, Orthodox and Lutherans have drawn on their respective theological traditions and developed different insights on what takes place.

a. Lutherans speak about Christ’s “real presence” in the Eucharist and describe Christ’s body and blood as being “in, with and under” the bread and wine (Formula of Concord, SD 7). By this they mean that the bread and the wine really become the body and blood of Christ, through the Words of Institution and the action of the Holy Spirit. Drawing on patristic sources, Lutherans understand Christ’s presence in the elements christologically: “Just as in Christ two distinct, unaltered natures are inseparably united, so in the Holy Supper two essences, the natural bread and the true natural body of Christ, are present together here on earth in the action of the sacrament, as it was instituted” (SD 7). Lutherans, however, maintain a distinction between a personal, hypostatic union and a “sacramental union”, favoring the latter in order to describe Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. Lutheran theology is able to speak of a transformation (mutatio) of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ (Apology X, 2; XXIV). This is not understood as eliminating the physical character of the bread and wine in the Eucharist. Lutherans emphasize that it is God’s Word which makes the sacrament (Large Catechism, 5: The Sacrament of the Altar).

c. Orthodox and Lutherans agree, whether they use the language of “metabole” or of “real presence”, that the bread and wine do not lose their essence (physis) when becoming sacramentally Christ’s body and blood. The medieval doctrine of transsubstantiation is rejected by both Orthodox and Lutherans.

1. Orthodox and Lutherans believe that the changes that take place in the Eucharist are accomplished by the Holy Spirit. In the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist, the Orthodox explicitly include the entire economy of salvation, which culminates in the Words of Institution, Anamnesis, Epiclesis and Holy Communion. For Lutherans, the totality of the work of Christ is also presupposed and is liturgically enacted in the eucharistic worship service as a whole, although less elaborately. Both Lutherans and Orthodox believe that the Eucharist cannot be isolated from the entire mystery of salvation.

1. Lutherans and Orthodox agree that the relation of the Eucharist to the ordained ministry/priesthood (hierosyne) requires full discussion at a later stage. Lutherans and Orthodox both hope and pray for a day when they may celebrate the Eucharist together and work together as the one Body of Christ for the life and the salvation of the world.
   ecupatria.org/DIALOGUES/L…islava2006.htm

 

[Nine_Two]

Sorry for the length:

I think this is the key line:

The Eucharist presupposes the confession of the one faith of the church and strengthens the believers’ union with Christ and their union and communion with each other both locally and universally

If you are partaking of the Eucharist with us it is necessary that you be of the same faith as us. If you are of the same faith as us then those rites and rituals we do to join new members to us should not be an issue.

 

[nickybr38]

Exactly. You must be one of us but the bar to entry is not all that high. If one accepts our teachings of what the Eucharist is, then you are by extension accepting that the Church has authority both on that matter and the teachings and interpretation of the gospel.

If one does not accept our teachings on the Eucharist, then what is it to them that they are not allowed to partake? It is just bread and wine given to you on a spoon used by dozens (perhaps hundreds) of others by a man in a fancy costume.

.< What?

So if one doesn’t accept the teachings it’s just bread and wine but if they do accept the teachings it’s the actual blood and body of Christ? Did I understand you correctly?

If that is, indeed, what you are saying, no wonder you allow anyone to partake.

Catholics believe it IS the blood and body of Christ, whether those receiving BELIEVE it or not. This is why we are so protective and guarded. We do NOT want someone disrespecting his body and blood by say spitting out the wine if they don’t like it, or giving some of the bread to a child waiting in the pew who will then drop crumbs all over the floor.

To us those aren’t crumbs, that isn’t wine… it’s his BLOOD and his BODY and we guard it zealously.

 

[CB_Catholic]

.< What?

He is being facetious. He is saying that if one does not accept the teachings, than in their mind it is just bread and wine and means nothing to them. The Orthodox believe as the
Catholics do about the Eucharist, and that is why they are so protective of it also. There is nothing in his post that denies the Eucharist. He is defending it from non-believers.

 

[nickybr38]

He is being facetious. He is saying that if one does not accept the teachings, than in their mind it is just bread and wine and means nothing to them. The Orthodox believe as the
Catholics do about the Eucharist, and that is why they are so protective of it also. There is nothing in his post that denies the Eucharist. He is defending it from non-believers.

I easily misunderstand, that’s why I wanted to clarify. I don’t pick up on those sort of things easily online.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I easily misunderstand, that’s why I wanted to clarify. I don’t pick up on those sort of things easily online.

Thank you for the clarification.

It is easy to misunderstand things on the internet without the benefit of body language, tone of voice, inflection, and facial expression. Using the emoticons helps somewhat.

You are welcome.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Not only what the earlier poster mentioned, but from the Catholic/Orthodox perspective, it would be sinful to give Eucharist to those of a different confession because they would exaserbate their sin by recieving the Eucharist unworthily. We don’t want to be liable to God for causing you to sin.

 

[benjohnson]

Not only what the earlier poster mentioned, but from the Catholic/Orthodox perspective, it would be sinful to give Eucharist to those of a different confession because they would exaserbate their sin by recieving the Eucharist unworthily. We don’t want to be liable to God for causing you to sin.

This one of the main reasons that the LCMS has closed communion as well.

 

[benjohnson]

So if one doesn’t accept the teachings it’s just bread and wine but if they do accept the teachings it’s the actual blood and body of Christ? Did I understand you correctly?

That would be the heresy of Receptionism. In modern times, some Lutherans sadly have fallen to this.

To us those aren’t crumbs, that isn’t wine… it’s his BLOOD and his BODY and we guard it zealously.

Us too. - Lutheran will happily eat and fallen crumbs of the body, and we dispose of spilled blood properly of well - Luther famously carved our a hunk of an altar where the Blood has soaked in.