Why can't Lutherans accept the Eucharist as a RC mass?

[steido01]

I disagree; it is not simple to be a Christian. We are forced to accept our own misgivings and ask for forgiveness. This is a theme throughout the Dialogues. Those that require black and white answers are frustrated but the process of reunion is much more important than egos.

Yet those who seek to make gray what Scripture clearly colors white will be equally frustrated.

EC, I’m praying right alongside you for the day that all the world is one. But we are not there yet. The Dialogues have done marvelous work. But they do not bring us to full communion. Mutual respect? I hope so. Doctrinal agreement? Only in the slightest.

 

[GKC]

I disagree; it is not simple to be a Christian. We are forced to accept our own misgivings and ask for forgiveness. This is a theme throughout the Dialogues. Those that require black and white answers are frustrated but the process of reunion is much more important than egos.

No doubt. But the Dialogues are no more a path to reunion, as the bodies currently are formulated, than are the analogous exercises of the ARCIC.

GKC

 

[GKC]

When I read the responses from some posters I wonder if I am living on another planet I can’t believe that my experience/ family composition is all that different than many Christians. My hunch is that intercommunion is a lot more common than some are aware of. As a Lutheran who has taken holy Communion with many other non-Lutheran Christians, especially Roman Catholics and Episcopalians, I have been blessed by our mutual confession of faith and union with the Real Presence of Christ.

I am currently reading Monsignor Radano’s book, ‘Lutheran and Catholic Reconciliation on Justification’ and hope to gain further insight into the issue of intercommunion.

If you mean that ignoring the rules is not uncommon, and ignoring the doctrinal differences likewise, I wouldn’t disagree with you.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Some folks do live on another planet.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Yes, it’s this simple. Unfortunately there is the occasional non Catholic that that feel they are an expert on Catholicism that truly cannot understand something as simple as you state GKC.

Blessings to you GKC,
Mary.

Thank you, ma’am, and to you.

GKC

 

[FrDavid96]

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

This is what Bl John Paul II had to say in Ecclesia de Mysterio

1. In my Encyclical Ut Unum Sint I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders.98

The faithful observance of the body of norms established in this area 99 is a manifestation and, at the same time, a guarantee of our love for Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for our brothers and sisters of different Christian confessions – who have a right to our witness to the truth – and for the cause itself of the promotion of unity.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_eccl-de-euch_en.html

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

This is what Bl John Paul II had to say in Ecclesia de Mysterio

1. In my Encyclical Ut Unum Sint I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders.98

The faithful observance of the body of norms established in this area 99 is a manifestation and, at the same time, a guarantee of our love for Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for our brothers and sisters of different Christian confessions – who have a right to our witness to the truth – and for the cause itself of the promotion of unity.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_eccl-de-euch_en.html

Father David, thanks for posting these documents since they lend credibility to both your and my positions, as I see it.

The Church is not a country club where members have privileges and others are excluded. Nor does the Church condemn other Christians whose beliefs may differ especially when the difference of belief is non-church dividing, as the Dialogue proclaims over and over again.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

If you mean that ignoring the rules is not uncommon, and ignoring the doctrinal differences likewise, I wouldn’t disagree with you.

GKC

You speak of “rules” as if bringing those to Christ is done in a court of law. Odd way of looking at evangelism.

 

[GKC]

Can. 844 §1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

This is what Bl John Paul II had to say in Ecclesia de Mysterio

1. In my Encyclical Ut Unum Sint I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97

These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders.98

The faithful observance of the body of norms established in this area 99 is a manifestation and, at the same time, a guarantee of our love for Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament, for our brothers and sisters of different Christian confessions – who have a right to our witness to the truth – and for the cause itself of the promotion of unity.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_eccl-de-euch_en.html

Which is certainly my understanding. Likewise, AFAIK, subject to correction, I would qualify, with respect to the points you emphasize in red. And would certainly, in extremis, and at need, try to avail myself of that sacrament. But I don’t think I merit it, in routine circumstances, nor that I would necessarily meet the conditions required. Nor that there is anything in train to open wider these doors.

GKC

 

[GKC]

You speak of “rules” as if bringing those to Christ is done in a court of law. Odd way of looking at evangelism.

You are unaware that the RCC has rules as to who may, under what circumstances, receive at a RCC altar?

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

You are unaware that the RCC has rules as to who may, under what circumstances, receive at a RCC altar?

GKC

Clearly you are aware of those rules; something like ‘not seeing the forest for the trees’.

 

[GKC]

Clearly you are aware of those rules; something like ‘not seeing the forest for the trees’.

Yes, I am aware of those rules.

When the RCC modifies them, let me know.

If you ignore them, your choice.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Yes, I am aware of those rules.

When the RCC modifies them, let me know.

If you ignore them, your choice.

GKC

That modification can not be more evident than in the Dialogues which you have the choice to ignore or not.

 

[GKC]

That modification can not be more evident than in the Dialogues which you have the choice to ignore or not.

Until the Dialogues become the Magisterium, I note them as of interest, but not in any sense modification. They are neither doctrine, dogma, nor Canon. Let me know when they reach that status.

GKC

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Until the Dialogues become the Magisterium, I note them as of interest, but not in any sense modification. They are neither doctrine, dogma, nor Canon. Let me know when they reach that status.

GKC

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, anyone?

 

[GKC]

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, anyone?

How’s that working for getting you to the altar, within the existing RCC rules?

GKC

 

[Per_Crucem]

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, anyone?

Still not dogma, canon or doctrine.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, anyone?

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

 

[EvangelCatholic]

How’s that working for getting you to the altar, within the existing RCC rules?

GKC

Right now the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity is suggesting that Lutherans could receive holy Communion in a Catholic Church just as Orthodox Christians are afforded. The 2017 Commemoration of the Reformation may be the occasion; at least the Lutheran World Federation is hoping so. Popes John Paul 23 and Benedict certainly voiced encouragement for intercommunion. Now we wait for Francis to decide.

 

[GKC]

Right now the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity is suggesting that Lutherans could receive holy Communion in a Catholic Church just as Orthodox Christians are afforded. The 2017 Commemoration of the Reformation may be the occasion; at least the Lutheran World Federation is hoping so. Popes John Paul 23 and Benedict certainly voiced encouragement for intercommunion. Now we wait for Francis to decide.

Keep us advised on that. Until then, you’ll … what?

Follow the RCC rules?

GKC