Why did God create Satan?

[Poseidon]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

 

[Bklynguy]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

That’s a good question—but remember that God created beings with a free will, not robots. He created beings, especially humans, as companions. One can’t be a companion with a robot. As such, you need to give these beings free will, even though suffering will entail because not everyone will “choose” correctly.

 

[RosalieM]

Who can know the mind of God?
I’d offer that the angel Lucifer was created with a free will and chose to rule in hell. Does God stop free will? No.
And wouldn’t we be in heaven and not on earth without the play of good vs. evil?

 

[danserr]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

How do you know that he did take that ticket? Maybe, in the end, the ticket that God did pick will turn out to have been the ticket that will result in the optimal number of people being saved. You are considering this only from the temporal point of view, but are not considering the end of the story that includes some people enjoying eternal happiness with God.

Your question would obviously have to be extended to include “why does God create anyone who will rebel against him?” This is the same as asking "why doesn’t God make a world where everyone is saved and no one rejects him?

Well, that is easily answered. God has to respect the free will of his creatures, including the free will to reject Him. As an example, suppose God decides to create Bob. Suppose he leaves it up to Bob whether or not to accept God, and suppose that with the choice to accept God or reject Him, Bob chooses to reject God. Can God make a world where Bob chooses him? Not if He leaves it up to Bob!

Now, could God just decide not to create Bob and anyone else (including Satan) who would reject him, and create a world where no one reject him? Well, maybe, but such a world may have serious drawbacks that would lead God not to create it (in philosophical terms it might be a possible world but not a feasible world.) Maybe such a world would only have a very small number of people, or none at all. This would certainly justify God in not creating this world and creating one with more people who would end up saved, even if such a world included creatures (including some supernatural) who would rebel against God.

 

[JDaniel]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

Poseidon:

This is a subject that has been responded to numerous times recently. St, Thomas answers, " . . .that God’s knowledge of the future is not really foreknowledge at all, since to the eternal Mind all things are present. So long as a free act is considered as future, i.e., as contained in its free cause, it it indeterminate and incapable of being known with certainty. But God knows free acts not as future but as present, that is, as though they were actually happening before his eyes."

Here’s an analogy that I think seems to fit: Imagine you have a large basket in front of you full of lottery tickets. Each ticket has the amount of money that you’ll win if you select it written on it, and you can take as many tickets as you like. Some tickets say $10, some say $50, some say $100, but there are a few that have negative numbers - if you select them you lose money. What would you do? Obviously any sane person would take all the tickets that get them money, and leave the ones that take money away. God, however, took the worst ticket of all - the one that said “lose a million bucks if you take this one.” So why did he do it?

As you can see from the quote above, that is not quite the analogy, unfortunately.

Lucifer became excessively enchanted with his own excellence. So much so that he turned completely inward and away from God. “. . .suffering, death, and destruction” are not evils, per se. They are analogously “evil” as bad things that occur in physicality to the physical. What God does do is to keep any of those things from becoming more than any of us can bear.

Consider that for awhile.

God bless,
jd

 

[Serious]

Can God make a world where Bob chooses him? Not if He leaves it up to Bob!

Correct. But God can create a world where Bob does not exist. There is no violation of Bob’s free will.

It is amazing. This topic has been brought up zillions of times. Every time it is pointed out that by selectively creating certain people and omitting to create some other ones - the “problem” of violating that free will never even arises. But the apologists keep on flogging that poor dead horse.

Some go even further “downhill” in reason. They say that if God only creates people who freely choose him, that also violates the free will. Which is nonsense. Joe’s free will to choose good cannot be logically contingent upon Jack’s freely choosing evil, since then Joe’s decision would be contingent upon Jack’s choice… and as such it would not be free.

Is this so hard to comprehend???

 

[Robert_Sock]

If it were not for evil we would be destined to life in a twilight world, never achieving salvation.

 

[Serious]

But God knows free acts not as future but as present, that is, as though they were actually happening before his eyes."

Do you actually deny that God created Satan? Was Satan present at all “times”? If there was a time “before” creation, then God had “foreknowledge”. And if so, then God could have decided NOT to create Satan.

The same applies to “bad” humans. We are not co-existent with God. In God’s own time there was a period when we did not exist yet, and thus could have chosen not to create some of us.

 

[danserr]

Originally Posted by danserr View Post
Can God make a world where Bob chooses him? Not if He leaves it up to Bob!

Correct.

Good. So far we agree that God cannot make Bob choose him if he gives Bob free will. You then object:

But God can create a world where Bob does not exist. There is no violation of Bob’s free will.

I accounted for this explicitly in my previous post (#4). You can see more here as well.

Some go even further “downhill” in reason. They say that if God only creates people who freely choose him, that also violates the free will. Which is nonsense. Joe’s free will to choose good cannot be logically contingent upon Jack’s freely choosing evil, since then Joe’s decision would be contingent upon Jack’s choice… and as such it would not be free.

This is also included in my previous answer and the link I provide.

More specifically, suppose our Bob who rejects God. Suppose God simply does not create him, or anyone who would reject Him. In doing this, God has created a world where no one rejects Him. But, as we have said, perhaps while there is a logically possible world where no one rejects God, this world is not feasible, ie has over-riding drawbacks that lead God not to create it (such as having a small number of people). In this case in not creating many people who would reject Him, God also does not create many who would accept Him. But it is hardly fair that these people should be denied the chance to know and love God because of the others who would reject God.

C.S. Lewis said that by this logic, you would make a dog in a manger the tyrant of the universe.

 

[Poseidon]

How do you know that he did take that ticket? Maybe, in the end, the ticket that God did pick will turn out to have been the ticket that will result in the optimal number of people being saved. You are considering this only from the temporal point of view, but are not considering the end of the story that includes some people enjoying eternal happiness with God.

But Satan is the one who started everything off. If Satan had never existed then EVERYONE would be saved, not just an optimal number. Yes, you could say that if Satan had never existed then someone else would have rebelled, but God could easily stop that by simply not creating that person/angel. We already know that there are plenty of angels who did not rebel, so it is not inevitable that someone will rebel.

 

[Poseidon]

More specifically, suppose our Bob who rejects God. Suppose God simply does not create him, or anyone who would reject Him. In doing this, God has created a world where no one rejects Him. But, as we have said, perhaps while there is a logically possible world where no one rejects God, this world is not feasible, ie has over-riding drawbacks that lead God not to create it (such as having a small number of people). In this case in not creating many people who would reject Him, God also does not create many who would accept Him. But it is hardly fair that these people should be denied the chance to know and love God because of the others who would reject God.

How can something be not feasible for an omnipotent being? If we accept that God could create a world where there are only a few people but they all accept him, then he could certainly fill that world. Just give every person 20 kids. In a few generations there will be billions of people.

Also, you seem to be regarding people who don’t make it to heaven as a means to an end. I disagree. If God loves every person like he says he does, then he wouldn’t send someone to hell just so he could send that person’s two kids to heaven. And does that mean that if you have no kids then you must be going to heaven? Because you certainly aren’t being used as a vessel to make more souls to get into heaven.

 

[Qoeleth]

The dualism of God and Satan, good and evil, is a metaphor reflecting the human experience. There is no ‘why’. Reasons and purposes are a humn creation.

 

[Blue_Cricket]

I think I am following most of this thread, so here goes:

Sort of like: “Why would someone bother to bring a child into the world at all when they might turn out bad? Just creating the infant soul gives them the right to choose! I’d rather be alone than take that chance!” So thereby God of Life would be limited to fearing the potential of His lesser creation, putting Him in a position of idolatry where a creature is feared more than God == who is supposed to be all powerful. That God does not commit idolatry against even Himself at the Divine level could be an argument for the Hypostatic union, where we have Father, only Consubstantiated Son, and the Holy Spirit which proceeds from Father and Son. Thus, everything in the Divine Substance is greater than the Laws which we creatures rely on to interpret and describe the Holy Trinity (Interestingly enough, this means that Jesus in the Garden, faced the idolatry test of fearing murderous creatures more than Father. He asked the Father to let the cup pass from Him – but to His captors, He spoke not a word ‘like a lamb to the slaughter’ to beg for His freedom. The Father faced the test also, did He spare His soon to be Crucified Son, or look hold fast and give up His only Begotten Son like He had tested Abraham over?)

Also: Satan didn’t start up with a name that roughly translates into “Accuser”. The Devil got a look at the Living God’s Faith, Hopes, and Love for all Creation, got snarky about not being the Divine Center of it, then packed up and left – to harass everybody else who stayed in God’s camp.

Followed by: “But there exists a universe where every citizen’s free-will choice is good. It’s called Heaven, and no one is forced to live there.” (The Kingdom of Heaven is all around us.)

And: “Could an infinite God create something He couldn’t move?” A: “Yes, not because it would be Big, but because it would be Fragile. Free will, once touched is not completely free. Free will agreeing to be touched is one thing, and free will forced is can cross over into rape.” The more free will you have because you are not enslaved by sin, the more you can do. That is what those who practice virtue tend to be stronger than those who hope to convert or make a last minute stand – the have reserves to draw on. That is also why those who are more developed (in either direction good or bad) are held more accountable for their actions. To more who is given, more is expected. (Which could lead me into a whole discussion about the sanctity of the Immaculate Conception, but I digress )

(Sort of like the science question: When we observe something, do we change or influence it?)

I mean, honestly, I know some of the dilemma – but God has free will too. And one of things God does, being All Good, is Create. However, understanding the importance of giving his Creation a chance to decide what they want, He does so. Even if it means that they walk away, and He – having created them – have to take responsibility for some of the mess they left behind for those who want to be with God. Hence, the Passion Death and Resurrection – where the bill for Satan’s attacks was paid by Jesus Christ.

Sorry this got so long. I was going down a different path, went back and erased most of it, then it got long again.

Yours in Christ

 

[danserr]

But Satan is the one who started everything off. If Satan had never existed then EVERYONE would be saved, not just an optimal number. Yes, you could say that if Satan had never existed then someone else would have rebelled, but God could easily stop that by simply not creating that person/angel. We already know that there are plenty of angels who did not rebel, so it is not inevitable that someone will rebel.

Good thoughts, but I think answerable.

Now, you suspect the weakness of this reply yourself when you says “sure, maybe if Satan existed, someone else would have rebelled.”

Exactly! We do not know that without Satan’s rebellion things would have gone along fine. Your reply is that God could just avoid creating anyone who would rebel, but this takes you right to the problem that I have pointed out earlier. You want God to create a world where all people are saved. But like I have said, it may be that such a world has over-riding drawbacks (like a very small number of people).

How can something be not feasible for an omnipotent being? If we accept that God could create a world where there are only a few people but they all accept him, then he could certainly fill that world. Just give every person 20 kids. In a few generations there will be billions of people.

A good question. How can an omnipotent being not do something. There are a couple issues here, but the immediate one is the issue of free will. As Serious acknowledged, even an omnipotent being cannot force someone to freely choose Him. An omnipotent being, if he creates creatures with free will, will not be able to make those creatures do anything (like accepting him).

This does not mean that God is omnipotent. The key article on this is by Thomas Flint from 1983 “Maximal Power,” that lays this out more clearly. The short answer, though is that an omnipotent being cannot do things described by the free will of his creatures. (For an article on this, see the section on omnipotence here.)

Like I said earlier. Suppose God creates Bob and gives Bob the choice to accept Him or not. Suppose Bob rejects Him. Can God make Bob accept Him? Not if He leaves it up to Bob!

As for your counter-example, there is no guarantee that those 20 kids would choose God.

Also, you seem to be regarding people who don’t make it to heaven as a means to an end. I disagree. If God loves every person like he says he does, then he wouldn’t send someone to hell just so he could send that person’s two kids to heaven. And does that mean that if you have no kids then you must be going to heaven? Because you certainly aren’t being used as a vessel to make more souls to get into heaven.

No, nothing I said implies that people that don’t make it to heaven are a means to an end. God created them wanting them to go to heaven, he offered them sufficient grace to attain heaven, He died for each and every one of them, and yet they still rejected Him. He respects that choice.

What God will not do, is allow the choice of those who reject Him to interfere with the ability of those who would choose Him to enjoy eternal happiness with Him.

As to your question about having two or no kids, no, that is in no way implied by anything I said. Even if you have no kids, you could get more souls to heaven by your interactions with other people.

 

[JDaniel]

Do you actually deny that God created Satan?

Seriously:

Did I say that anywhere?

Lucifer was a created angel. As I pointed out, it is Catholic doctrine that he was rather ultra-enchanted with himself and turned to himself rather than to the Beatific Vision. Do some homework, now that you’re out of school.

Was Satan present at all “times”? If there was a time “before” creation, then God had “foreknowledge”. And if so, then God could have decided NOT to create Satan.

Seriously, re-read my previous post.

The same applies to “bad” humans. We are not co-existent with God. In God’s own time there was a period when we did not exist yet, and thus could have chosen not to create some of us.

Well, that’s your anthropomorphic solution. However, I doubt it was a good solution, or God would have jumped all over it.

God bless,
jd

 

[Serious]

More specifically, suppose our Bob who rejects God. Suppose God simply does not create him, or anyone who would reject Him. In doing this, God has created a world where no one rejects Him. But, as we have said, perhaps while there is a logically possible world where no one rejects God, this world is not feasible, ie has over-riding drawbacks that lead God not to create it (such as having a small number of people).

That is illogical. Is God playing a numbers game? But apart from that there is no upper limit for the number of people who will freely choose God, is there? Do you really think that God can (or is able to) create only X number of people who will all freely choose him, but the X+1st person will necessarily reject him?

In this case in not creating many people who would reject Him, God also does not create many who would accept Him. But it is hardly fair that these people should be denied the chance to know and love God because of the others who would reject God.

Why so? First, there is no “fairness” for those who do not exist, because they were never created. And all those who would choose God could be created. I suspect that you think along these lines: “God creates “A”, who begets “B”. “A” will reject God, but “B” would choose God. If God does not create “A”, then “B” cannot be created, so “B” will lose the opportunity to choose God”. Is that your line of thought? If it is, please think further. God is not limited to create “B” only as an offspring to “A”. “B” is just a soul, who is “implanted” into a human body. So even if “A” is left uncreated, “B” could still be created.

 

[Serious]

Did I say that anywhere?

It follows logically from what you said. If God created Satan, then in God’s time there was a point when Satan did not exist yet, and then there was a time when God created Satan, and from that moment onwards Satan existed. Either this is true, or Gad and the angels have been coexisting eternally.

As such there was a time when God did not create Satan (or all the angels) YET, but according to the catholic doctrine, he already knew which angels will rebel and which ones will not. So God had foreknowledge, and this could have chosen not to create all the rebelling angels.

Well, that’s your anthropomorphic solution. However, I doubt it was a good solution, or God would have jumped all over it.

That is one funny “argument”.

 

[tonyrey]

Why did God create Satan when he knew beforehand that Satan would subvert his creation and cause untold suffering, death, and destruction?

He knew there would be negative individuals but they are negligible compared to the positive ones because negativity is ultimately self-destructive…

 

[danserr]

That is illogical. Is God playing a numbers game? But apart from that there is no upper limit for the number of people who will freely choose God, is there? Do you really think that God can (or is able to) create only X number of people who will all freely choose him, but the X+1st person will necessarily reject him?

Who said anything about a number game? I am simply suggesting that it is better that more people be saved than fewer. Do you seriously propose to disagree with this?

The second part of your statement in no way follows since as I have said repeatedly (and you seem to agree) a God who gives his creatures free will is limited by what his creatures will freely do. No, I do not think the X+1 person will necessarily reject God, but I think that using his free will, he may reject God and God, respecting his free will, allows that.

Why so? First, there is no “fairness” for those who do not exist, because they were never created. And all those who would choose God could be created.

There I am afraid we must disagree. Suppose, the present world, where a great many people may be lost and a great number saved. Then suppose that in order to create a world where all are saved, God must create a world with only two people. He has done this in order that no one be lost, but at the same time all the people who would have been saved in the present world will not be able to enjoy eternal happiness with God, in fact will never even be created just because of some people who would reject God. And you seriously ask me to believe that is fair? Why should the damned get to hold a veto on the happiness of those who will reject God? Should hell be able to veto heaven?

I suspect that you think along these lines: “God creates “A”, who begets “B”. “A” will reject God, but “B” would choose God. If God does not create “A”, then “B” cannot be created, so “B” will lose the opportunity to choose God”. Is that your line of thought? If it is, please think further. God is not limited to create “B” only as an offspring to “A”. “B” is just a soul, who is “implanted” into a human body. So even if “A” is left uncreated, “B” could still be created.

No, your claim that God could create all who would choose Him, regardless of whether or not he created all who would reject Him is misguided. You are failing to consider that God is limited in his action by the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom. It may be that given creaturely freedom, a world where all were saved would be a world with over-riding drawbacks (like a very small number of people) that would lead God not to create it. If this world had a very small number of people, then how could God implant the same number of saved souls? (multiple souls per body?)

 

[Serious]

Who said anything about a number game? I am simply suggesting that it is better that more people be saved than fewer. Do you seriously propose to disagree with this?

It depends. If you say: “is it better to have a thousand saved and zero not saved, than one hundred saved and zero not saved” then I will agree. But if you say: “is it better to have 1000 saved and 500 not saved than 100 saved and none not saved”, then I disagree. Of course this is unimportant. See below.

The second part of your statement in no way follows since as I have said repeatedly (and you seem to agree) a God who gives his creatures free will is limited by what his creatures will freely do. No, I do not think the X+1 person will necessarily reject God, but I think that using his free will, he may reject God and God, respecting his free will, allows that.

Not true. From God’s point of view there is no “may reject him”. God knows up front that a person-to-be-created will freely choose him or reject him. When a new person is-to-be-created; there are two possibilities. Either God can find a new (unused) soul, who WILL freely choose God, or not. If God can find such a soul then all is well, the number of “persons-to-be-saved” is increasing. If God cannot find such a soul, then it is impossible to have more “people-to-be-saved”, because the next one will NECESSARILY reject God - which means that this new person does not have free will.

But since the free will of every person is stipulated, God can always find a new soul who will FREELY choose God, and therefore your “too few people” stipulation is incorrect.

There I am afraid we must disagree. Suppose, the present world, where a great many people may be lost and a great number saved. Then suppose that in order to create a world where all are saved, God must create a world with only two people.

Refuted above. There is no upper limit of the number of people who will all, freely choose God.

He has done this in order that no one be lost, but at the same time all the people who would have been saved in the present world will not be able to enjoy eternal happiness with God, in fact will never even be created just because of some people who would reject God. And you seriously ask me to believe that is fair?

I am saying that this is incorrect. The number of “people-who-choose-God” cannot be increased or decreased by choosing “unsaved” people.

No, your claim that God could create all who would choose Him, regardless of whether or not he created all who would reject Him is misguided. You are failing to consider that God is limited in his action by the counterfactuals of creaturely freedom. It may be that given creaturely freedom, a world where all were saved would be a world with over-riding drawbacks (like a very small number of people) that would lead God not to create it. If this world had a very small number of people, then how could God implant the same number of saved souls? (multiple souls per body?)

You are repeating yourself. I proved above that the number of “people-to-saved” is independent from the number of “people-not-to-be-saved”, and the number of “people-to-be-saved” can be as large as God wishes it to be.