Why don't non-Catholics kneel in their services?

[jim1130]

Peace.

For Catholics, we genuflect when we enter the Church and kneel during portions of the Mass, all of which reflect our respect and humility before God. I wonder why non-Catholics do not kneel and/or genuflect during their services.

Thank you.

Peace.

 

[slyboots]

To what would they genuflect?
To whom would they kneel?
Most protestant churches are more meeting halls than houses for God. Heck, some of them are gymnasiums.
The body and blood of Christ is not present in them either. Except for Episcopalians, Anglicans and some Lutherans who believe that their communion is the real presence.

When my son was about 5 years old we went into a Catholic Church where the smell of incense hung in the air. We were protestants at the time.
The priest came out and was talking with us about the beautiful church. My son was sniffing the air and smiling. The priest asked him what he thought of the church.
“It smells holy.” he replied.
The priest then asked him what his church smelled like.
“Coffee”. was his answer.

That’s the difference in a nutshell between protestant church buildings and ours I think.

P.S. No reflection on our orthodox/ Eastern fellow Christians was meant by this. I was referring strictly to the majority of protestant churches.

 

[cecilia97]

jim1130:

Peace.

For Catholics, we genuflect when we enter the Church and kneel during portions of the Mass, all of which reflect our respect and humility before God. I wonder why non-Catholics do not kneel and/or genuflect during their services.

Thank you.

Peace.

I’ve seen new Catholic church buildings with no kneelers and no space between pews to kneel on the floor, either.

c

 

[a_pilgrim]

Hi, jim1130!

The practices of kneeling and genuflecting do, indeed, serve as ways to indicate respect and humility before God, just as you say. Please understand, however, that it is not just *non-*Catholics who do not employ these actions as signs of reverence. Kneeling and genuflecting are not part of the liturgical praxis of many of the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Many, if not most, Eastern Catholic church buildings do not even have kneelers - some actually do not even have pews!

The proper posture for reverent prayer in the Catholic East is standing as opposed to kneeling. Also, a deep bow at the waist, followed by a Sign of the Cross, is used in the Catholic East in those instances where a Latin Catholic, such as yourself, would typically genuflect.

All of these signs of reverence reflect the respect and humility toward God that you speak of, with none being more reverent than the other.

 

[St.Eric]

Many protestants kneel during “altar calls”.

 

[Contarini]

jim1130:

Peace.

For Catholics, we genuflect when we enter the Church and kneel during portions of the Mass, all of which reflect our respect and humility before God. I wonder why non-Catholics do not kneel and/or genuflect during their services.

Thank you.

Peace.

What makes you think we don’t?

It’s true that many American Protestants dislike kneeling. For that matter, American Catholics have moved away from it too–one Catholic lady told me that there were no kneelers in one particularly liberal church because “Vatican II forbade kneeling” (yes, I know how ridiculous this is). It has more to do with the comfort-loving nature of American society than with theological differences between Protestants and Catholics. I will grant that the cerebral focus of many Protestant traditions makes them disposed to see sitting (as if one were in a classroom) as the normal pose.

Also, by “non-Catholics” you are including the Orthodox. They don’t kneel as much as you guys do, but they do on occasion prostrate themselves. . . . (I hate the habit that has caught on on this board of using “non-Catholic” when you mean “Protestant”–I know you’re trying to be sensitive to radical Protestants who don’t like to be called Protestants, but you’re overlooking the Orthodox in the process and I think you should be more worried about their feelings).

Edwin

 

[Della]

cecilia97:

I’ve seen new Catholic church buildings with no kneelers and no space between pews to kneel on the floor, either.

c

This is an aberration that ought to be corrected, though, in a Latin Rite church.

As to the OP’s point, many Protestants do not kneel from a long standing tradition of rejecting Catholic practice, although I would bet that most Protestants who belong to denominations that don’t kneel would even know that.

On the other hand, many an Evangelical church will have “altar calls” where there are no altars and will kneel on the floor, facing the back of the pew, especially in Pentecostal churches, which I always thought odd. In doing that, they are actually being more penitential that most Catholics, although, once again, they are hardly aware of the fact.

 

[Orionthehunter]

jim1130:

Peace.

For Catholics, we genuflect when we enter the Church and kneel during portions of the Mass, all of which reflect our respect and humility before God. I wonder why non-Catholics do not kneel and/or genuflect during their services.

Thank you.

Peace.

They don’t genuflect for theological reasons. They don’t kneel for practical/traditional reasons.

Genuflect/Theological: The Real Presence is not pre-eminently present in the Eucharist. For non-Catholics, Christ’s presence is embodied in their fellow worshippers. As they are equally Christ, who would you genuflect too? And since most don’t believe in transubstantiation, the altar isn’t a holy sacrificial structure. However, since Lutherans and Anglican religions have consubstantiation, there is a sacrificial component to the altar and that is why you will sometimes see a bow (and occassionally even genuflection, esp. during the liturgy at the moment of consubstantiation) given to the altar (exp. by the clergy).

Kneel/Practical-Traditional: When they started, they were either off-shoot of the Catholic Church or another Protestant Church or an organic creation (started from nothing). But in nearly all cases, they started worshipping outside of a existng church building (limited Lutheran examples and universal Anglican/Episcopal examples to be addressed). Their initial worship space didn’t include kneelers so the tradition started for practical reasons. As they moved/constructed dedicated worship buildings, the practical became tradition.

The exceptions in the Lutheran tradition and Anglican/Episcopal/ Church of England of having kneelers is related to the fact that they began worshipping in confiscated Catholic Churches. This fact is why you sometimes will find kneelers in Lutheran Churches (esp. in Germany but occassionally in the U.S. but this might be for such a practical reason that they had purchased a former Catholic Church and just never took out the kneelers) and almost universally find them in Anglican/Church of England Churches.

US based Episcopal Churches seem to have some diversity in this regard. The older the church building, the more likely you will find kneelers. My friend in MPLS belongs to a old Episcopal parish and when we attended baptisms of his children, they had kneelers. However, my paternal relatives who are also Episcopal belong to parishes that do not have kneelers. It is my supposition that these non-kneeling churches either chose to not have kneelers for cost reasons or as a desire to appear less Catholic/more Protestant. But my supposition may be wrong but I don’t know what it could be as there isn’t a clear theological or traditional reason for them to not have kneelers.

 

[Mickey]

a pilgrim:

The practices of kneeling and genuflecting do, indeed, serve as ways to indicate respect and humility before God, just as you say. Please understand, however, that it is not just *non-*Catholics who do not employ these actions as signs of reverence. Kneeling and genuflecting are not part of the liturgical praxis of many of the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Many, if not most, Eastern Catholic church buildings do not even have kneelers - some actually do not even have pews!

The proper posture for reverent prayer in the Catholic East is standing as opposed to kneeling. Also, a deep bow at the waist, followed by a Sign of the Cross, is used in the Catholic East in those instances where a Latin Catholic, such as yourself, would typically genuflect.

All of these signs of reverence reflect the respect and humility toward God that you speak of, with none being more reverent than the other.

Glory To Jesus Christ!

**This is accurate information. **
img444.imageshack.us/img444/6460/icnymphios7ho.th.jpg

 

[thogg85]

You are right that most Protestant churches do not have kneelers but we show honor and humbleness before God in all ways that scripture speaks about. We kneel at an alter, we lay prostrate in worship, we bow, we raise our hands in humble submission and an acknowlegement that He is God and we need Him. I think it is dangerous to judge another Christian in the way they worship or pray. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:10-14? The Pharisee took pride in his outward actions and words while the tax collector stood at a distance, looked down and beat his chest asking God for mercy. Anyone can kneel at a kneeler and genuflect and leave unchanged. But someone else may stand with their head bowed acknowleging their sin and leave forgiven. Let’s remember that God looks at our heart, not our outward appearances and actions.

 

[Della]

thogg85:

You are right that most Protestant churches do not have kneelers but we show honor and humbleness before God in all ways that scripture speaks about. We kneel at an alter, we lay prostrate in worship, we bow, we raise our hands in humble submission and an acknowlegement that He is God and we need Him. I think it is dangerous to judge another Christian in the way they worship or pray. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:10-14? The Pharisee took pride in his outward actions and words while the tax collector stood at a distance, looked down and beat his chest asking God for mercy. Anyone can kneel at a kneeler and genuflect and leave unchanged. But someone else may stand with their head bowed acknowleging their sin and leave forgiven. Let’s remember that God looks at our heart, not our outward appearances and actions.

Just to clarify, we are merely discussing why many Protestant denominations, especially those on the Evangelical side of Christianity, do not kneel as a part of their church services, not claiming that Protestants never kneel or show other signs of reverence.

And I would quibble just a bit over any claims that Evangelicals kneel at altars. Most Evangelical churches have no altars and those that have anything at all have “communion tables,” not altars. So, it’s rather funny to read that Evangelicals “kneel at an altar” when such altars don’t exist.

 

[thogg85]

Della:

And I would quibble just a bit over any claims that Evangelicals kneel at altars. Most Evangelical churches have no altars and those that have anything at all have “communion tables,” not altars. So, it’s rather funny to read that Evangelicals “kneel at an altar” when such altars don’t exist.

Every Evangelical church I have ever been a part of has had an altar with a kneeler and most that I have visited (That is, in the midwest). We don’t ask people to kneel as a part of the service each week but we do ask people to bow their heads or stand… It may not be the same action of reverence and respect as you have, but it is there all the same.

 

[thogg85]

I can’t speak for all Protestant churches but in ours, our altar with a kneeler is open for anyone to come and pray or use before the service, during worship and afterwards if desired. It is always mentioned from the pulpit that the the altar is open and available. People are always invited to come and kneel and other people often come and pray with those who are kneeling.

 

[tparsons]

cecilia97:

I’ve seen new Catholic church buildings with no kneelers and no space between pews to kneel on the floor, either.

Where???..I’ve never seen that before.

 

[Della]

thogg85:

Every Evangelical church I have ever been a part of has had an altar with a kneeler and most that I have visited (That is, in the midwest). We don’t ask people to kneel as a part of the service each week but we do ask people to bow their heads or stand… It may not be the same action of reverence and respect as you have, but it is there all the same.

I have never seen anything like that in any Evangelical church in my part of the country, but rather what I described. I believe you, of course, and it has been many years since I was in an Evangelical church. Frankly, I think the return to having an altar is a positive step–it shows that altars aren’t passé or unnecessary or even idolatrous as many variations of Evangelicals have believed and taught for many generations.

And I agree that any act of reverence is to be encouraged. The difference is, though, that Catholics are showing reverence for more than God present everywhere or in each other, but truly present in the consecrated host, which is the body and blood, soul and divinity of the Risen Christ.

Now, when Evangelicals come around to seeing the necessity of the Eucharist, which I believe is really just a matter of time, then you will become Catholic and the divisions between two of the largest segments of Christianity will be over. For, if you have an altar it stands to reason you are offering a sacrifice, and the only sacrifice that removes our sins is the one sacrifice of Christ, which we Catholics re-present to the Father at every Mass.

 

[thogg85]

Della:

Now, when Evangelicals come around to seeing the necessity of the Eucharist, which I believe is really just a matter of time, then you will become Catholic and the divisions between two of the largest segments of Christianity will be over. For, if you have an altar it stands to reason you are offering a sacrifice, and the only sacrifice that removes our sins is the one sacrifice of Christ, which we Catholics re-present to the Father at every Mass.

During communion each person kneels at the altar. Some believe in the the true presence of Christ. Yes, I know that this is highly unusual for an Evangelical church, but I believe we have a large group of people seeking truth and have seen truth in scripture.

 

[jim1130]

a pilgrim:

Hi, jim1130!

The practices of kneeling and genuflecting do, indeed, serve as ways to indicate respect and humility before God, just as you say. Please understand, however, that it is not just *non-*Catholics who do not employ these actions as signs of reverence. Kneeling and genuflecting are not part of the liturgical praxis of many of the Eastern Catholic Churches as well. Many, if not most, Eastern Catholic church buildings do not even have kneelers - some actually do not even have pews!

The proper posture for reverent prayer in the Catholic East is standing as opposed to kneeling. Also, a deep bow at the waist, followed by a Sign of the Cross, is used in the Catholic East in those instances where a Latin Catholic, such as yourself, would typically genuflect.

All of these signs of reverence reflect the respect and humility toward God that you speak of, with none being more reverent than the other.

Thank you VERY much for the clarification and explanation. I certainly appreciate your post. My OP was meant as a way for me to understand, not pass judgement or make any critical accusations so I am grateful that you took the time to enlighten me. Have a blessed day. Jim

 

[jim1130]

thogg85:

You are right that most Protestant churches do not have kneelers but we show honor and humbleness before God in all ways that scripture speaks about. We kneel at an alter, we lay prostrate in worship, we bow, we raise our hands in humble submission and an acknowlegement that He is God and we need Him. I think it is dangerous to judge another Christian in the way they worship or pray. Remember the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:10-14? The Pharisee took pride in his outward actions and words while the tax collector stood at a distance, looked down and beat his chest asking God for mercy. Anyone can kneel at a kneeler and genuflect and leave unchanged. But someone else may stand with their head bowed acknowleging their sin and leave forgiven. Let’s remember that God looks at our heart, not our outward appearances and actions.

Peace.

Truth be told, I was not judging. I am genuienly curious. I know why we, Catholics, genuflect and kneel, but was interested in why Protestants, typically, do not kneel during their services. That’s all. No judgement intended. Jim

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Contarini:

What makes you think we don’t?

It’s true that many American Protestants dislike kneeling. For that matter, American Catholics have moved away from it too–one Catholic lady told me that there were no kneelers in one particularly liberal church because “Vatican II forbade kneeling” (yes, I know how ridiculous this is). It has more to do with the comfort-loving nature of American society than with theological differences between Protestants and Catholics. I will grant that the cerebral focus of many Protestant traditions makes them disposed to see sitting (as if one were in a classroom) as the normal pose.

Also, by “non-Catholics” you are including the Orthodox. They don’t kneel as much as you guys do, but they do on occasion prostrate themselves. . . . (I hate the habit that has caught on on this board of using “non-Catholic” when you mean “Protestant”–I know you’re trying to be sensitive to radical Protestants who don’t like to be called Protestants, but you’re overlooking the Orthodox in the process and I think you should be more worried about their feelings).

Edwin

The main reason a lot of newer parishes do not have pews is $. St Marks, a church I used to rarely go to, did not have kneelers or pews, but chairs. After a few years they were able to save up enough $ to get some decent pews from another church that was closing and the kneelers. Pews are expensive.

 

[jim1130]

cecilia97:

I’ve seen new Catholic church buildings with no kneelers and no space between pews to kneel on the floor, either.

c

I, regretably, attended a Catholic Church that did not have kneelers, and still does not have kneelers, although now there are “pads” people can retrieve as they enter to use. I was never comfortable NOT kneeling.