Why should we believe the Israelite mythology? as basis for our faith?

[Servant19]

If the common practice is to go and kill your neighbor and his entire family and village and pillage and take the women and slaves. If that is the common practice in your town when someone wrongs you

And instead you say

No, I am going to seek justice, but not like that God says if he steals from me, I just get my money back, if he kills my goats I kill only an equal number of his goats.

It is just just punishment for criminal behavior.

You need to stop looking at it through a modern eye.

But that said, nothing in the New Testament requires one to be a doormat. There is nothing wrong with just laws and courts and just punishment for wrong actions.

Thankyou that makes a lot of sense, and I agree

.

 

[Servant19]

If the common practice is to go and kill your neighbor and his entire family and village and pillage and take the women and slaves. If that is the common practice in your town when someone wrongs you

And instead you say

No, I am going to seek justice, but not like that God says if he steals from me, I just get my money back, if he kills my goats I kill only an equal number of his goats.

It is just just punishment for criminal behavior.

You need to stop looking at it through a modern eye.

But that said, nothing in the New Testament requires one to be a doormat. There is nothing wrong with just laws and courts and just punishment for wrong actions.

Thankyou that makes a lot of sense, and I agree

May I ask you, if this spiritual teaching given by God to the people was intended to “advance” the spiritual condition of the people, and this was advanced further with the teachings of Jesus, why would you not think that further “advancements” are not necessary, given the context of the current global condition?

.

 

[openmind77]

No,

God could have come down and taught them how to build a nuclear reactor. It doesn’t mean they were capable of doing so.

Same too with moral issues.

God could tell them to turn the other cheek and they would have dismissed it , or been wiped out by surrounding barbaric tribes and not able to pass on the message.

So God taught them to be kinder and more just than they were.

Later when they gained more capabilities he taught them the fullness of truth he wanted them to know.

So you believe that in the beginning God told Joshua to go from village to village murdering every man, woman, child including babies? And then later on, he decided that they were ready to be kinder?

I would suggest that God never told them to kill anyone, that the Israelites decided to do it on their own. The Israelites just got more civilized over time, like everyone else.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thankyou that makes a lot of sense, and I agree

May I ask you, if this spiritual teaching given by God to the people was intended to “advance” the spiritual condition of the people, and this was advanced further with the teachings of Jesus, why would you not think that further “advancements” are not necessary, given the context of the current global condition?

.

You will have to ask God someday.

But personally it seems very moral and just principals were given by Christ and these truths are held and propagated by the church. They are defined and developed and implemented over the years.

A good example would be the birth control pill. It didn’t exist till 60 years ago, but the moral principals given by God can be applied by the church to something new like this and we can know the moral position.

Today’s culture is do to selfishness and people ignoring the church. Which is to ignore the truth.

 

[Servant19]

You will have to ask God someday.

But personally it seems very moral and just principals were given by Christ and these truths are held and propagated by the church. They are defined and developed and implemented over the years.

A good example would be the birth control pill. It didn’t exist till 60 years ago, but the moral principals given by God can be applied by the church to something new like this and we can know the moral position.

Today’s culture is do to selfishness and people ignoring the church. Which is to ignore the truth.

Do you not think that the principle of “govenance” (and the government shall be on his shoulder") is an avenue for God to explore with His ways to advance civilization?

.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So you believe that in the beginning God told Joshua to go from village to village murdering every man, woman, child including babies? And then later on, he decided that they were ready to be kinder?

I would suggest that God never told them to kill anyone, that the Israelites decided to do it on their own. The Israelites just got more civilized over time, like everyone else.

I must wonder why you would have a problem with God commanding that a tribe of evil people be killed

But you have no problem with the idea that God destroyed ALL humanity (save one family) in a flood.

???

Does not Hinduism have a similar story?

Would you not say that He who creates life can take life?

 

[Jon_S_1]

So you believe that in the beginning God told Joshua to go from village to village murdering every man, woman, child including babies? And then later on, he decided that they were ready to be kinder?

I would suggest that God never told them to kill anyone, that the Israelites decided to do it on their own. The Israelites just got more civilized over time, like everyone else.

Part of the problem is that

What Hindus mean by “God”

Is fundamentally different than what Christians mean by “God”.

 

[openmind77]

Part of the problem is that

What Hindus mean by “God”

Is fundamentally different than what Christians mean by “God”.

I am talking strictly in terms of what Jesus meant by God (or the Father). I don;t think the one Jesus described would ever go about telling people to commit massacres.

 

[openmind77]

I must wonder why you would have a problem with God commanding that a tribe of evil people be killed

But you have no problem with the idea that God destroyed ALL humanity (save one family) in a flood.

???

Does not Hinduism have a similar story?

Would you not say that He who creates life can take life?

Natural disasters are not the same as massacres.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I am talking strictly in terms of what Jesus meant by God (or the Father). I don;t think the one Jesus described would ever go about telling people to commit massacres.

I believe you probably picture God as a supreme being, one being among many but that is not God at all.

God is being itself , he sustains all life. Anyone living lives because God says so. God is not just the greatest being. He is something fundamentally different.

As such, he giveth and he taketh away and is completely just in doing so by whatever means.

Nothing would exist at all except he wills it so.

 

[openmind77]

I believe you probably picture God as a supreme being, one being among many but that is not God at all.

God is being itself , he sustains all life. Anyone living lives because God says so. God is not just the greatest being. He is something fundamentally different.

As such, he giveth and he taketh away and us completely just in doing so by whatever means.

Nothing would exist at all exist he wills it so.

I am not talking about God himself giving/taking anything through natural occurrences.

I am talking about about the loving God that Jesus preached - He would never order massacres of men, women, children and babies.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I am not talking about God giving/taking anything.

I am talking about about the loving God that Jesus preached - He would never order massacres of men, women, children and babies.

Why do you assume that?

On what basis?

Did not Jesus say,

Matt 7 “13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

Matt 7 “21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

Revelation 3:15-16

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Etc

Etc

 

[openmind77]

Why do you assume that?

On what basis?

Does this mean that you assume God does order massacres?

So you are saying you believe that God could order you tomorrow to commit multiple murders and you would have no difficulty following such orders?

What else do you believe God may ask you to do?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Does this mean that you assume God does order massacres?

So you are saying you believe that God could order you tomorrow to commit multiple murders and you would have no difficulty following such orders?

What else do you believe God may ask you to do?

No,

I am no prophet, I do not have direct revelation from God as the Jewish people did.

God has destroyed people himself, he doesn’t need me to do it!

 

[openmind77]

No,

I am no prophet, I do not have direct revelation from God as the Jewish people did.

God has destroyed people himself, he doesn’t need me to do it!

Of course natural disasters like floods, earthquakes cause destruction and loss of life - nobody denies that.

God did not need to ask Jewish people to do anything - he could have destroyed (as you say) those people himself. So it is really doubtful that he did order such actions, if in fact he is the same God that we believe in today.

I just don’t believe that the God that Jesus talked about would ask any of his children to commit mass murder.

The fact that you believe that God could ask you tomorrow to commit such crimes is disturbing… Any action can then be justified on these grounds - that God wanted us to act that way.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Of course natural disasters like floods, earthquakes cause destruction and loss of life - nobody denies that.

God did not need to ask Jewish people to do anything - he could have destroyed (as you say) those people himself. So it is really doubtful that he did order such actions, if in fact he is the same God that we believe in today.

I just don’t believe that the God that Jesus talked about would ask any of his children to commit mass murder.

The fact that you believe that God could ask you tomorrow to commit such crimes is disturbing… Any action can then be justified on these grounds - that God wanted us to act that way.

I never said God would order me to do any such thing. Don’t put words in my mouth.

4000 years ago, God interacted very differently with his people.

We can’t understand God’s bigger plan.

We can’t understand why he did a big flood or why he allows evil or why he ordered a nation to invade and take another land in war as he did the Jews in taking the Holy Land.

Perhaps if they hadn’t, Jesus would not have come.

Or perhaps if the Jews had not prospered militarily, instead if the basis of Western Law being a moral and Just Judeo Christian system, we would be under some horrendous and evil pagan system.

You can’t claim to know why and you can’t claim it was evil.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

If Mankind did not fall from a state of innocence, if there was no man called Abraham, then what is Christianity fulfilling? If it is mere mythology what was the point of Christ if not to complete the covenant given to Abraham, Moses and etc?

 

[RPRPsych]

I think the premise of this thread, interesting as it is, is faulty.

No one but the most ultra-liberal Biblical scholar would claim that the entire Old Testament was myth.

Even those who subscribe to the “JEDP” Four-Source theory for the Pentateuch date J around 720 B.C. and E around 980 B.C., meaning that they are based on oral tradition dating back to those times.

Agnostic archaeologists like William Dever still concede that there is a lot of historical validity in the Old Testament.

And finally - if all those figures were mythical, why would God Himself (Jesus, that is!) and St. Paul constantly refer to them as real, historical persons?

 

[Uli]

Only the Catholic Church have Bibel. It’s a Today’s Heresy to say, we had the Bible together with the Jews. The OT claims Jesus as the Christ not many rules of the Pharisees!

 

[openmind77]

I never said God would order me to do any such thing. Don’t put words in my mouth.

4000 years ago, God interacted very differently with his people.

Does this mean God has changed over time? From one who orders massacres to one who says turn the other cheek?

We can’t understand God’s bigger plan.

But we do want to have a basic idea of what God is like, whatever his plan maybe. The question is - do you believe in a God who could ask you to commit crimes against humanity tomorrow?

We can’t understand why he did a big flood or why he allows evil or why he ordered a nation to invade and take another land in war as he did the Jews in taking the Holy Land.

Floods, tsunamis, earthquakes can happen today. A large enough of meteor could wipe out the the earth’s propulation - natural disasters are not what we are talking about. But if you think he can order wars, massacres or even genocide - what is to stop you from commiting such acts if you believe that is what God wants you to do.

Perhaps if they hadn’t, Jesus would not have come.

Or perhaps if the Jews had not prospered militarily, instead if the basis of Western Law being a moral and Just Judeo Christian system, we would be under some horrendous and evil pagan system.

You can’t claim to know why and you can’t claim it was evil.

I don’t see why Jesus could not have come, if the Jews had not even existed. He would be just born in another religion. The Jews did not prosper militarily that much, what we have inherited is the Roman system of government and administration.

I have absolutely no difficulty in saying that killing of women and children is evil without equivocation under any circumstances, I am surprised that you do.