Writing fiction and being an occasion of sin

[Victorious_song]

I’m an aspiring author. I write fiction, often with a slight religious, Catholic twist, but never anything expressedly religious. I also have no issues including a wide array of characters; everything from Catholic priests to prostitutes. of course, I never write anything sexually graphic, nor do I care much for excessivly bad language, though I’ll use it if completely relevant. With this in mind, obviously, I won’t be looking for the opinions of those who believe such immorality cannot be displayed in fiction, regrdless of content. This is not a thread about that, so please, don’t make it one.

This is a thread about taking such writing and letting specific people read it. Obviously, if you’re getting published, a wide array of people will be reading your work, having all sorts of personal interpritations. But what if you’re writing, and a friend asks to read it, and you’re afraid something in there might not be ok for them, specifically? Like, a story I have contains a disillusioned atheist…if I have an atheist friend, should I not let them read it, for fear they will feel validated in their opinions? or a story featuring a homosexual man or couple, for realism of modern day society…should I think twice before letting my pro-gay sister read my work?

 

[onjac]

It depends. I do write fiction on the side myself. Your stories have a Catholic twist, correct? If you feel that your characters have something meaningful to say to your readers, there should be no problem at all.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

There is no clear easy answer. You know those people, those potential readers best, while we do not. So it’s your own powers of discernment you need.

One anonymous person read a fanfic of mine featuring some Catholic characters, among them a priest. He later said The story had changed his opinion of ‘religious types’ to a positive one. Maybe you will have the same luck.

Ps: there are writer’s groups here on CAF, I think…

 

[Victorious_song]

Hmm…so I guess it’s a case by case basis…for example, I have two friends who are supportive of homosexuality, and enjoy reading homosexual pairings in a story. One, I don’t feel ok letting her read one of my longer stories (where there is a semi-regular homosexual couple to display the societal norms of the culture I’ve written) because I know she writes graphic stories about characters she fancies. The other, I know she doesn’t care for characters that way, even if she enjoys seeing “ships.” She knows FULL well what my opinion on homosexuality…perhaps while it might not be ok for my first friend to read my work in this rticular instance, it might be ok for my second friend?

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Ps: there are writer’s groups here on CAF, I think…

Did someone call my name?

I found this thread randomly, so I’m not recruiting or anything.

You really can’t worry about things like this. You will, but you should focus on writing your story rather than how people might receive it. This is very simple yet complicated. When writing a story, things happen. Characters run into other characters, maybe they go out to eat, maybe they have a knife fight. Who knows? Then one says “Hey, don’t I know you?” The other replies “Yes, we go to the same gay bar.” You’re developing a narrative. Your subconscious mind is often making connections between people you know and the characters you’re creating, sometimes not. When you engage the process honestly, you are bound to see parallels between your story and your life.

I often guage the success of what I’m writing by how badly I don’t want to let anyone read it. The closer a story/poem is to your heart, the more exposed you feel when you share it. These posts of yours are screaming that what you really fear is rejection from your friends. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not sure about what you say when you’re worried that they may be imperiled by reading what you’ve written.

I have ADD so I must take a step back and ask if you get what I’m after so far. Sometimes my brain gets ahead of itself.

 

[Victorious_song]

Did someone call my name?

I found this thread randomly, so I’m not recruiting or anything.

You really can’t worry about things like this. You will, but you should focus on writing your story rather than how people might receive it. This is very simple yet complicated. When writing a story, things happen. Characters run into other characters, maybe they go out to eat, maybe they have a knife fight. Who knows? Then one says “Hey, don’t I know you?” The other replies “Yes, we go to the same gay bar.” You’re developing a narrative. Your subconscious mind is often making connections between people you know and the characters you’re creating, sometimes not. When you engage the process honestly, you are bound to see parallels between your story and your life.

I often guage the success of what I’m writing by how badly I don’t want to let anyone read it. The closer a story/poem is to your heart, the more exposed you feel when you share it. These posts of yours are screaming that what you really fear is rejection from your friends. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not sure about what you say when you’re worried that they may be imperiled by reading what you’ve written.

I have ADD so I must take a step back and ask if you get what I’m after so far. Sometimes my brain gets ahead of itself.

I just don’t want to put bad thoughts into my friends head that would cause them to sin, and then me by proxy, that’s all. I don’t really fear rejection, I fear sin. I fear loosing an artform important to me. Oftentimes my friends will help me write stories, chime in their ideas, add whole chapters and plot twists. And none of my friends are Catholic. Most support immoral lifestyles, or even find them apealing. I guess though, if they know me and know my opinions on things like homosexuality, then it’s not that big a deal, especially friends who I know don’t struggle with lustful thoughts or pornographical thinking.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

I just don’t want to put bad thoughts into my friends head that would cause them to sin, and then me by proxy, that’s all. I don’t really fear rejection, I fear sin. I fear loosing an artform important to me. Oftentimes my friends will help me write stories, chime in their ideas, add whole chapters and plot twists. And none of my friends are Catholic. Most support immoral lifestyles, or even find them apealing. I guess though, if they know me and know my opinions on things like homosexuality, then it’s not that big a deal, especially friends who I know don’t struggle with lustful thoughts or pornographical thinking.

I *totally *know what you’re talking about, I really do. This is a struggle that you’ll have for the rest of your life (so long as you stay a practicing Catholic *and *an artist). I finished my graduate degree (Master of Fine Arts, Writing) at an art school, and I swear I must have been the only practicing Catholic there, certainly the only one to ever admit publically that I was Catholic. For all of their “open mindedness” so many of my classmates got vicious and cruel at the mention of the church. I admit that I didn’t *advertise *myself as Catholic, nor did I ever deny it if asked. I knew lots of folks living “immoral lifestyles,” whom very definitley found them “appealing.” I studied with them, went out with them, brainstormed with them, and in general hung out with them just like Jesus (I’m referring, of course, to the scriptures that mention Jesus hanging out with prostitutes, tax collectors and you know there had to be at least a few boozing writers in there). But I was at a place where I wasn’t questioning my faith; I knew who I was, which made me less vulnerable (but certainly not invulnerable. You get what I mean).

So right now I’m not so much worried about your friends but you. I think you can scratch off the list your worry that you’re “put[ting] bad thoughts into my friends head that would cause them to sin.” You would have to work pretty hard to outdo the vast amount of bad thoughts daily bombarding all of us at any given moment. But bad thoughts “by proxy”? That can and does happen. If you think about it this way, your culpability is higher. You believe the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. You seek to follow them. Your friends don’t, so that actually means (potentially) that you (yes, you) are a simply wonderful influence on them. :getholy: They haven’t accepted the truth as you have, and so they are not in the same place as you.

On the culpability scale, you have to figure out where you are. Most non-writers (or non-artists) don’t understand the process of artistic invention. Luckily for you, I do *and *I’m a practicing Catholic. (Sailor Kenshin knows, too ). Non-artist Catholics have a hard time when you say you’re developing a character, and the character is just a great sinner, and you as the artist/writer aren’t sure if the character is going to repent or not. So says the scrupulous critic: “But your character *must *repent and become a better person! How will they go to heaven if they don’t repent?” The Catholic artist knows that not everyone does repent, and not all stories end happily. That’s part of our poetic license.

So on the culpability scale, you must consider this: When you say “my friends will help me write stories, chime in their ideas, add whole chapters and plot twists” who is coming up with the *worst *ideas? Is it you? Are you upping the ante on what they throw into the mix? If that’s the case, you actually may be causing a scandal (“Wow, if Victorious-song is coming up with this stuff, and is a Catholic, why believe in God? We’re all on the same radar screen! There’s no difference between us.”) I’m only saying this because I’ve been in that particular boat before, and that’s where the fear of rejection comes in, as I said earlier. I know you say “I don’t really fear rejection, I fear sin.” But I’m claiming that it’s all related.

As this post gets longer I realize I should wait to hear your reaction to this before I say more. As an actual writer, I can’t help getting over the feeling that you’re not speaking “in general” but that you have an actual piece of writing somewhere that you are concerned about and I’d be willing to get more details. That’s up to you.

 

[Victorious_song]

Well,on the last point, I realtl can’t say it’s any one particular work. because i have many going on at once, writing for whichever tickles my fancy at the time. Some stories ARE darker than others, some characters more so, but no one in particular.

You do seem to get where I’m coming from! As for who’s coming up with the worst ideas, I don’t know how to answer that, without a certain status of what “worst” implies. In some cases, I’ve been the one to say, you know, considering this culture, considering the mental struggle they’re going through, etc etc, this is likely to happen, and I’ll go for it, or we, if it’s a group project. I tend to feel better writing something a little grittier when it’s my story and mine alone. Some of my work, our work, use to be pretty graphic, but that was ages ago. Now, the worst that happenes is moderate violence, moderate swearing, and instances where it’s a fact that some characters are adulterous, and some characters are in homosexual relationships. I don’t like anything gratuitous. I don’t really think scandal is an issue here, because my friends who I write with know my views very well, and know that I have a hard line I won’t cross.

 

[porthos11]

I worry about this too, as I’m also looking into writing fiction. My worry is the use of sexuality. It being what it is, I know it can be a powerful literary device but like any powerful tool, it can be misused. Now for sure, I’m not going to write anything erotic or pornographic; I know what that is. However, I was wondering as to whether even merely identifying a sexual encounter and the fact that there is pleasure being experienced crosses the line.

As it is, I’m trying to avoid even that, and if a sexual encounter does advance the plot, I’m just going to look at bracketing it with perhaps the prelude (e.g. walking to the hotel room, implying what happens next), the aftermath (e.g. pillow talk after the fact) or both, but omitting the actual sex.

My concern is the same, avoiding creating the occasion of sin for my readers (and for myself too, i.e. not imagining too graphically a sex scene).

People’s thoughts?

 

[Victorious_song]

Try going to decentfilms.com, and read the about page, What Are the Decent Films? A devout Catholic view of art for artists!

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

I worry about this too, as I’m also looking into writing fiction. My worry is the use of sexuality. It being what it is, I know it can be a powerful literary device but like any powerful tool, it can be misused. Now for sure, I’m not going to write anything erotic or pornographic; I know what that is. However, I was wondering as to whether even merely identifying a sexual encounter and the fact that there is pleasure being experienced crosses the line.

As it is, I’m trying to avoid even that, and if a sexual encounter does advance the plot, I’m just going to look at bracketing it with perhaps the prelude (e.g. walking to the hotel room, implying what happens next), the aftermath (e.g. pillow talk after the fact) or both, but omitting the actual sex.

My concern is the same, avoiding creating the occasion of sin for my readers (and for myself too, i.e. not imagining too graphically a sex scene).

People’s thoughts?

For me, I can’t think of specifics like this until they occur (or seem likely to occur) while I’m drafting. Putting the poetic license aside, there is a kind of imperative that we as Catholic artists must obey; not to knowingly flood the world with obviously objectionable material. But the line can get blurred depending on the story you want to tell (or where the story has led you). Plenty of times I’ve been drafting something, and for each decision or inaction of a character, a good author must consider the consequences and sometimes those consequences can lead a narrative to places that the author didn’t intend (which more often than not, artistically speaking, can be a good thing. Serendipity is what we should live for as writers ). The author comes to a crossroads. At every crossroads, the author must sit back and consider “Where do I want to go? Where will my audience want to go? What is the most interesting thing to develop at this point? Have I considered all the possibilities? Am I about to write myself into a corner? ” These are just general considerations, but the Catholic writer should be thinking at the very least that the story shouldn’t become pornographic. That’s easy. So when you worry about whether “merely identifying a sexual encounter and the fact that there is pleasure being experienced crosses the line” I don’t see a problem with that. What I do see as a problem is being too general, like a sentence or two that essentially says to the reader “wink, wink, someone just had sex and it was gooood.”

Truly in cases like this, there is no replacement for specifics. We have to cross these bridges when they come, not imagining all the bridges that are out there. There have to be very well-crafted writerly strategies that address the moment at hand. You really can’t know how a reader will take what you’ve written, and certainly not whether or not they will commit a sin because of it (unless you’ve written an unambigous piece of literary pornography which intends to titillate. Accidental titillation has to be taken on a case by case basis I believe).

Does that make sense? I can explain it differently…

 

[porthos11]

For me, I can’t think of specifics like this until they occur (or seem likely to occur) while I’m drafting. Putting the poetic license aside, there is a kind of imperative that we as Catholic artists must obey; not to knowingly flood the world with obviously objectionable material. But the line can get blurred depending on the story you want to tell (or where the story has led you). Plenty of times I’ve been drafting something, and for each decision or inaction of a character, a good author must consider the consequences and sometimes those consequences can lead a narrative to places that the author didn’t intend (which more often than not, artistically speaking, can be a good thing. Serendipity is what we should live for as writers ). The author comes to a crossroads. At every crossroads, the author must sit back and consider “Where do I want to go? Where will my audience want to go? What is the most interesting thing to develop at this point? Have I considered all the possibilities? Am I about to write myself into a corner? ” These are just general considerations, but the Catholic writer should be thinking at the very least that the story shouldn’t become pornographic. That’s easy. So when you worry about whether “merely identifying a sexual encounter and the fact that there is pleasure being experienced crosses the line” I don’t see a problem with that. What I do see as a problem is being too general, like a sentence or two that essentially says to the reader “wink, wink, someone just had sex and it was gooood.”

Truly in cases like this, there is no replacement for specifics. We have to cross these bridges when they come, not imagining all the bridges that are out there. There have to be very well-crafted writerly strategies that address the moment at hand. You really can’t know how a reader will take what you’ve written, and certainly not whether or not they will commit a sin because of it (unless you’ve written an unambigous piece of literary pornography which intends to titillate. Accidental titillation has to be taken on a case by case basis I believe).

Does that make sense? I can explain it differently…

Good thoughts and ideas; thanks Nom. And of course, novel-writing books would never mention this but prayer and consecrating your work I’m sure helps too. I figured I’d sometimes have to do an Augustine - Love God and do what you please.

 

[edwest2]

I’m an aspiring author. I write fiction, often with a slight religious, Catholic twist, but never anything expressedly religious. I also have no issues including a wide array of characters; everything from Catholic priests to prostitutes. of course, I never write anything sexually graphic, nor do I care much for excessivly bad language, though I’ll use it if completely relevant. With this in mind, obviously, I won’t be looking for the opinions of those who believe such immorality cannot be displayed in fiction, regrdless of content. This is not a thread about that, so please, don’t make it one.

This is a thread about taking such writing and letting specific people read it. Obviously, if you’re getting published, a wide array of people will be reading your work, having all sorts of personal interpritations. But what if you’re writing, and a friend asks to read it, and you’re afraid something in there might not be ok for them, specifically? Like, a story I have contains a disillusioned atheist…if I have an atheist friend, should I not let them read it, for fear they will feel validated in their opinions? or a story featuring a homosexual man or couple, for realism of modern day society…should I think twice before letting my pro-gay sister read my work?

Where do you plan to publish your fiction? A Kindle ebook (or other ebook format), a PDF, or a paper book that will be a short run from one of the handful of short run (under a dozen copies) printers? Because once it’s out in general circulation, there’s no way to know who will read it.

Or you could offer your book on your own web site (assuming you have one).

If people know that you’ve just published a book, the usual response is “Great! Can I read it, or where can I get a copy?”

To answer your question, you’ll have to not tell anyone you know that might be negatively or positively affected, that you’ve published anything.

Hope this helps,
Ed

 

[Victorious_song]

Where do you plan to publish your fiction? A Kindle ebook (or other ebook format), a PDF, or a paper book that will be a short run from one of the handful of short run (under a dozen copies) printers? Because once it’s out in general circulation, there’s no way to know who will read it.

Or you could offer your book on your own web site (assuming you have one).

If people know that you’ve just published a book, the usual response is “Great! Can I read it, or where can I get a copy?”

To answer your question, you’ll have to not tell anyone you know that might be negatively or positively affected, that you’ve published anything.

Hope this helps,
Ed

No Ed it does not help because I have seen your opinions on the arts and media and do not agree with your views at all, and therefor cannot trust anything you tell me. Thank you for your time though.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

No Ed it does not help because I have seen your opinions on the arts and media and do not agree with your views at all, and therefor cannot trust anything you tell me. Thank you for your time though.

Actually the advice edwest gives is pretty sane.

Have fun, guys. Bye!

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

No Ed it does not help because I have seen your opinions on the arts and media and do not agree with your views at all, and therefor cannot trust anything you tell me. Thank you for your time though.

Ed is good people. :tsktsk:We all bump heads on CAF eventually, but this response seems unnecessarily combative.

We are many parts, but we are all one body. Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. :hug1:

 

[Victorious_song]

Actually the advice edwest gives is pretty sane.

Have fun, guys. Bye!

He said not to mention it to anyone who would be negatively or POSTIVILY affected. What sense does that make?
I am sorry that my response was combative or knee-jerk