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Chatter163
Guest
I must concur with Mr. Bilodeau. If Mr. Luke were taking a statistical research course, he would flunk, due to his footloose handling of premises, conclusions and inferences.
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Prometheum_x
Guest
#1 is certainly false.
Grace given is not necessarily grace received. If this proposed statistic is accurate, it could simply be a reflection of the sad state of the church in America.
The only thing the statistics would show is that those marriages that are annulled were never valid. It says nothing whatsoever about those marriages that haven’t been annulled.
Now, if you take all attempted Catholic marriages together, both valid and invalid, and the percentage that has been annulled is the vast majority of that total, then you could accurately say that the vast majority of attempted Catholic marriages are invalid.
With out that sort of information, no such conclusions will logically follow, even if they are true.
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martino
Guest
I did not read through all the replies so I am sort of jumping in here ignorantly!
I believe there are a couple of things at work here, first of all I believe that annulments are not being administered properly, there seems to be some abuse in the granting of annulments.
Having said that, I also believe that there are probably more invalid marriages out there than people think. It should not be at all surprising that the number of annulments is so high when you consider that most Catholics have no regard at all for their faith and enter into marriage with little or no respect for the sacrament. Catholics have been secularized at the same rate as non Catholics and I think that many or most of the marriages performed inside the Catholic Church are probably invalid whether they ever realize it or not.
The high number of annulments tells me more about the state of marriage in this country than it does about the abuses in the annulment process.
It is important to note that Catholic couples that are obedient to the Church and pray together have less than 1% divorce rate while those that are disobedient and make their own rules are closer to 60%.
I believe there are a couple of things at work here, first of all I believe that annulments are not being administered properly, there seems to be some abuse in the granting of annulments.
Having said that, I also believe that there are probably more invalid marriages out there than people think. It should not be at all surprising that the number of annulments is so high when you consider that most Catholics have no regard at all for their faith and enter into marriage with little or no respect for the sacrament. Catholics have been secularized at the same rate as non Catholics and I think that many or most of the marriages performed inside the Catholic Church are probably invalid whether they ever realize it or not.
The high number of annulments tells me more about the state of marriage in this country than it does about the abuses in the annulment process.
It is important to note that Catholic couples that are obedient to the Church and pray together have less than 1% divorce rate while those that are disobedient and make their own rules are closer to 60%.
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Luke-Jr
Guest
They mostly just said my logic was bad, so I’m kinda figuring I didn’t explain it well enough for the average person to understand.
I think so, also, but I was hoping some other evidence might turn up assuming the annulments were valid.
Just my opinion, but from my experiences, I think the most common thing invalidating a marriage is that most to-be spouses are unaware that they need to confer the sacrament upon each other… thus it simply never happens.
The sad point this thread was started to make note of.
Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be surprised if the percentage of so-called Catholics (not just couples) who are Catholic in more than just name only was somewhere around 1%
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Maybe this will help.
The initial screening process before annulments are even applied for is done by a parish priest. If the priest does not learn something that points to the possibility of the marriage being invalid, the annulment process usually goes no further and the paperwork isn’t filed. In other words, clearly valid Catholic marriages that end in divorce rarely make it into the annulment statistics you are concerned about. If they did keep records of these initially consults, I assume we’d see a much lower percentage of annulments granted.
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Luke-Jr
Guest
The matter you mentioned is irrelevent since the ratios used are annulments to marriages, not annulments to challenged marriages
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AServantofGod
Guest
Here’s another possibility Luke Jr., maybe it’s not a problem with the validity of Catholic marriages but more with the acceptance of any excuse for annulments. Maybe the church in America has gotten too lenient & free with granting annulments; so once again we’re looking at the problem with the human not divine aspect of the church.Can’t seem to find actual statistics information, so this is all theory, right now… if someone can reference actual statistics for this, I’d appreciate it.
Basically, from what I have heard, the percentage of annulments is the same as the percentage of divorces.
Since the only requirement for a divorce is the desire to obtain it, this would suggest a few possibilities:
Unless the Church is granting bad annulments, #1 should be false. Hopefully, God would grants Catholics more (or at least, not less) graces than citizens in general, so #3 should also be false.
- The only requirement for an annulment is to desire it.
- All requirements for an annulment other than the desire are always met…
- There are more Catholics desiring an annulled marriage (only some of which are granted it) than there are citizens desiring a divorce.
This leaves #2, which suggests that all Catholic marriages are invalid (the other requirement for an annulment). For the sake of not generalising, I’d say this “proves” (given the basis are all true) that the vast majority of Catholic marriages are invalid.
No, I don’t have any reason for this discussion/proof. It’s just something I thought of in my strange mind and I found it disturbing enough to post here… now, someone please disprove it
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AServantofGod
Guest
Looking at your post again, I guess I’m in favor of the granting of bad annulments argument.
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chevalier
Guest
Sad as it is, I’ve had similar considerations to yours. It gets even tougher when you actually study canon law… One thing is, it’s too easy to get it sometimes. The other thing is, it’s often too easy to get a marriage, first of all.
Amidst all the lawyering for both sides, one thing is forgotten: a nullity verdict will never undo a real sacrament, nor will a pro vinculo (no nullity) verdict do the same job as convalidation of an invalid marriage would.
Either way, the truth is gradually becoming a secondary concern to people’s desires.
One thought to ponder: If someone enters into a permanent sacred covenant and wants a way out a couple of years later, after meeting an attractive girl, has he ever been able to enter into marriage validly, with this kind of approach and understanding?
And a thing which needs to be remembered: there is no such thing as annulment. No tribunal can annul a marriage, except the dissolution of unconsummated marriage by the pope looks like an annulment more than divorce (as in the Pauline privilege, for example).
Amidst all the lawyering for both sides, one thing is forgotten: a nullity verdict will never undo a real sacrament, nor will a pro vinculo (no nullity) verdict do the same job as convalidation of an invalid marriage would.
Either way, the truth is gradually becoming a secondary concern to people’s desires.
One thought to ponder: If someone enters into a permanent sacred covenant and wants a way out a couple of years later, after meeting an attractive girl, has he ever been able to enter into marriage validly, with this kind of approach and understanding?
And a thing which needs to be remembered: there is no such thing as annulment. No tribunal can annul a marriage, except the dissolution of unconsummated marriage by the pope looks like an annulment more than divorce (as in the Pauline privilege, for example).
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