1 John 3:15 - What's the relationship between hate & murder?

[GodHeals]

What’s the relationship between hate & murder?

“Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” - 1 John 3:15

 

[D_Martin]

Be careful to not take it out of context, the example of a brother hating a brother is the start of what John is saying is the hate that makes one a murderer. John explains that Cain hated his brother’s righteousness. Hence if you hate the Righteousness of thy brother then he is saying you are a murderer.

1Jn:3:12: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
13: Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

Doesn’t mean if you hate your brother’s evil. Which would still be love thy brother, but it doesn’t require you to love what he maybe doing that could be less then righteous.

 

[Genesis315]

I think this is similar to when Our Lord said about committing adultery in one’s heart. When we hate, we are wishing ill on another in our heart.

 

[D_Martin]

It’s not evil to hate.

Deut:16:22: Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

But its what is hated that counts. Surly it is not evil to hate evil. Hate is a action that men can do, note also God can do. To say all hate is evil is like saying all love is good. When there are those who love to lay wait for the blood of the innocent.

 

[LegoGE1947]

It’s not evil to hate.

Deut:16:22: Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.

But its what is hated that counts. Surly it is not evil to hate evil. Hate is a action that men can do, note also God can do. To say all hate is evil is like saying all love is good. When there are those who love to lay wait for the blood of the innocent.

It is often hatred of someone that leads a person to want to murder them. If the hatred gets out of hand it can lead to that. To me, war is simply mass hatred of one group of people for another. Examples, the Nazis in World War 2 for nearly everyone, those who attacked US on 9/11, the communists during their reign , etc.

 

[D_Martin]

It is often hatred of someone that leads a person to want to murder them. If the hatred gets out of hand it can lead to that. To me, war is simply mass hatred of one group of people for another. Examples, the Nazis in World War 2 for nearly everyone, those who attacked US on 9/11, the communists during their reign , etc.

Well the “us against them” is used all the time, even if it’s to unite and motivate a football team. Anger and rage can be strong in the flesh.

What is to be understood about a thing like hate, is its proper place in the sight of the Lord our God:
Prov:8:13: The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

Eccl:3:8: A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[PendingTheist]

I realize we are not capable of understanding (Proverbs 3:5) but God can hate as there are verses describing His hate. Psalm 11:5: The Lord approves of the godly, but He hates the wicked and those who love to do violence." Malachi 1:3: "And I hated Esau…” It is often said God hates the sin and loves the sinner but these verses do not support that explanation. And if hate is metaphorical, what is the metaphorical purpose of God saying He hates Esau? Even if he mildly dislikes someone, that is still not love. Also, if God doesn’t hate, then how does He feel about wickedness? Does He merely love it less than good?
Jesus also makes it impossible to save yourself due to thought crimes like a man lusting a woman is adultery (Matthew 5:28). Why not a married man and why not a woman lusting a man? You mean to tell me a woman doesn’t lust over those gorgeous men on soap operas and only watch for the plot? That’s like a guy saying he gets Playboy for the articles. Except for arranged marriages, most would not have happened without premarital lust. Can God know lust like us? If not, how is He omniscient and is that fair for Him to judge us with a lack of this knowledge. If He does, how is He all good by his rules? Since Jesus was also human how do you know He didn’t lust? Did Jesus think He sinned and had John the Baptist baptize Him to remove sin or is that when He became divine? If a thought with no action is all that is needed to be guilty of sin does it go the other way around, meaning, if a believer has a good thought, such as to sell all possessions, give all the money to the poor and then leave his or her family to serve the Lord in an indigent country, but not actually do it, do they get rewarded in Heaven?

Besides lust, another thought crime is anger as mentioned above, which is equal to murder in Gods eyes (Matthew 5:22). I understand it’s about inner purity where our actions originate but again better wording and less guilt. I don’t think that’s too much to ask for from a divine inspirer. The worst thought crime by far is non-belief. It seems blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the one unforgivable sin (Mark 3:28, Matthew 12:31), or maybe not. I Timothy 5:8 says “But if someone does not provide for his own, especially his own family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever”.

 

[D_Martin]

Well hate isn’t metaphorical, no more then love is metaphorical within scripture or outside of scripture, so therefore there is no metaphorical purpose of God saying He hates Esau. God chose Jacob.

It is said in places in scripture (don’t know exactly where at this time) that the Lord God can and does hind or withhold, if you will, the Truth of Himself from men. Hence if a man know Him not, then how is the man to be saved? The Lord God can and has disregarded the existence of men in the past in scripture. This doesn’t mean He doesn’t care for the welfare of all men’s souls, but it can be apparent even to us, and He would certainly know if a soul hate Him or not.

The rant I don’t get, the OP quotes a scripture that refers to those who hate righteousness, are murderers according to the Apostle John.

And where do you get a thought crime is anger as mentioned above? Since when are we talking about thought crimes? Are you saying that when Jesus was angry with the merchants at the temple that it was a crime?

 

[GodHeals]

Thank you for the replies! Any more thoughts? I was thinking along the lines that HATE in a person’s heart leads to the MURDER of another person in the hater’s heart… is that the deepest meaning?

 

[GodHeals]

The rant I don’t get, the OP quotes a scripture that refers to those who hate righteousness, are murderers according to the Apostle John.

And where do you get a thought crime is anger as mentioned above? Since when are we talking about thought crimes? Are you saying that when Jesus was angry with the merchants at the temple that it was a crime?

I was trying to make the connection between adultery verses adultery in the heart. And was thinking along these lines with hate and murder in the heart…

 

[GodHeals]

A lustful or hateful thought or fantasy reveals the evil condition of the heart and it is judged as a mortal sin. That is my thinking, but not sure…

Sound correct?

 

[D_Martin]

No!
For one thing, its in who’s judgement is all this lust/fantasy evil, or what is a “mortal sin”? God’s? Your’s? The Church?

You have to get over yourself and accept that of yourself there is no good, and of God is good. And it is His Judgement that is Good, not our own. If you are looking for good in yourself, then you are looking in the wrong place, as Jesus says “only God is good”. You are in the flesh until farther notice, and such things will come to mind, by virtue of dwelling in the flesh, you can disregard it, or entertain it.

You are never going to purify the flesh, besides Paul says the flesh can’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven anyway.

And this obsession with what is mortal sin is killing more people then bringing them into the Life of Christ. Your life is dead, give it enough time and it will be apparent to you. All flesh must come to the end of itself. The Life of Christ never dies, and in it is no condemnation. So how can there be mortal sin in the Life of Christ? There isn’t. If you have the Life of Christ in you and you in Him then that’s what you look to, and disregard, or repent from, ( if you’ve entertained it), that which is unacceptable in the Presence of God.

To find an evil thought within yourself how far do you have to go, and how long would it take? To know that the Lord God is with you and in you and you in Him how far do you have to go, and how long would it take? Get over it you are not going to change human nature (life in the flesh), but God can replace it with His nature (Life that is of Christ Jesus and not of the flesh).

 

[LegoGE1947]

No!
For one thing, its in who’s judgement is all this lust/fantasy evil, or what is a “mortal sin”? God’s? Your’s? The Church?

You have to get over yourself and accept that of yourself there is no good, and of God is good. And it is His Judgement that is Good, not our own. If you are looking for good in yourself, then you are looking in the wrong place, as Jesus says “only God is good”. You are in the flesh until farther notice, and such things will come to mind, by virtue of dwelling in the flesh, you can disregard it, or entertain it.

You are never going to purify the flesh, besides Paul says the flesh can’t inherit the Kingdom of Heaven anyway.

And this obsession with what is mortal sin is killing more people then bringing them into the Life of Christ. Your life is dead, give it enough time and it will be apparent to you. All flesh must come to the end of itself. The Life of Christ never dies, and in it is no condemnation. So how can there be mortal sin in the Life of Christ? There isn’t. If you have the Life of Christ in you and you in Him then that’s what you look to, and disregard, or repent from, ( if you’ve entertained it), that which is unacceptable in the Presence of God.

To find an evil thought within yourself how far do you have to go, and how long would it take? To know that the Lord God is with you and in you and you in Him how far do you have to go, and how long would it take? Get over it you are not going to change human nature (life in the flesh), but God can replace it with His nature (Life that is of Christ Jesus and not of the flesh).

I was led to understand that a thought is only sinful if you act on it. For me, finding an evil thought within me would be like trying to find water in the Mississippi River

 

[D_Martin]

I was led to understand that a thought is only sinful if you act on it. For me, finding an evil thought within me would be like trying to find water in the Mississippi River

You are definitely correct on the water in the river point.

It seems when this subject, or subjects like it, come up, that there is this desire to lump everything into one basket and call the acts thereof sin. For example lust, a source of pleasure or delight; an attraction, charm, desire, appetite, relish or inclination for something. Is this a sin if one’s spouse is a source of pleasure or delight; an attraction, charm desire, appetite, relish or inclination for something?

Many take what is given in the flesh as sinful, but its sinful if misplaced. Hence what is of darkness doesn’t belong where that which is made to be in the Light. If one marries then one agrees to the terms thereof. Therefore lust toward one’s spouse isn’t a sin, but entertaining lust towards one who isn’t one’s spouse when one is in the agreement of marriage would be a sin against the spouse. (breach of contract)

 

[PendingTheist]

Well hate isn’t metaphorical, no more then love is metaphorical within scripture or outside of scripture, so therefore there is no metaphorical purpose of God saying He hates Esau. God chose Jacob.

It is said in places in scripture (don’t know exactly where at this time) that the Lord God can and does hind or withhold, if you will, the Truth of Himself from men. Hence if a man know Him not, then how is the man to be saved? The Lord God can and has disregarded the existence of men in the past in scripture. This doesn’t mean He doesn’t care for the welfare of all men’s souls, but it can be apparent even to us, and He would certainly know if a soul hate Him or not.

The rant I don’t get, the OP quotes a scripture that refers to those who hate righteousness, are murderers according to the Apostle John.

And where do you get a thought crime is anger as mentioned above? Since when are we talking about thought crimes? Are you saying that when Jesus was angry with the merchants at the temple that it was a crime?

So God CAN hate if its not metaphorical and clearly written in scripture so He is Not All loving? I’m confused.

Don’t you think withholding the truth from men is being mean as it may lead to misinterpretations, war and risk portions of His creation damned to hell? Would you without truthful thing from your child especially if you knew withholding it may lead then to infinite damnation?

Lust and anger are natural thoughts and emotions that arise form our limbic system that help our species procreate and protect itself from harm. To compare anger as a thought to the ACT of murder is unjust. It gives feeling of guilt, vile and helplessness to believers so they depend on a “savior” for these sinful thoughts when they are uncontrollable and natural. However, we use our large frontal lobes, unlike most other animals, to tame these thoughts thus WE take our own responsibility to not rape and murder. And if you do, then you serve time though our judicial system that we all agree upon in reality.

 

[D_Martin]

So God CAN hate if its not metaphorical and clearly written in scripture so He is Not All loving? I’m confused.

Sorry you are so confused, it seems if you were more familiar with scripture you would have already known that “God CAN hate”. Why did the Lord let Satan have his way with Job, it seems that would also put the Lord God into the “big meany” category in your view? Doesn’t it say in the NT that God is Love? How can it be that God is love and He let this happen to a man He even said was a righteous man? Or is your view of who and what God is, incorrect? The scripture is correct, therefore if one’s view is contrary to scripture then one’s view must be incorrect in relationship to the things of God, or the nature of God.

Why did God save Noah and his family and no one else? Why did the Lord God call Abram to the promised land and no one else? Why did the Lord God focus His attention on the Children of Israel and made His Presence known to the world around them that He was with the Children of Israel? They weren’t the only people in the world then correct?

 

[PendingTheist]

Sorry you are so confused, it seems if you were more familiar with scripture you would have already known that “God CAN hate”. Why did the Lord let Satan have his way with Job, it seems that would also put the Lord God into the “big meany” category in your view? Doesn’t it say in the NT that God is Love? How can it be that God is love and He let this happen to a man He even said was a righteous man? Or is your view of who and what God is, incorrect? The scripture is correct, therefore if one’s view is contrary to scripture then one’s view must be incorrect in relationship to the things of God, or the nature of God.

Why did God save Noah and his family and no one else? Why did the Lord God call Abram to the promised land and no one else? Why did the Lord God focus His attention on the Children of Israel and made His Presence known to the world around them that He was with the Children of Israel? They weren’t the only people in the world then correct?

One of the reasons my commitment to theism is pending is because of contradictions I became aware after reading the Whole bible. Others assert God is all loving and can’t hate so that to me is confusing. Some Christians object to the omnibenevelence of God. Although there is no specific passage, there are attributes given to God that compel a conclusion in favor of omnibenevelence. If God is loving (John 3:16) and perfect (Matthew 5:48), then He is perfectly loving to all things at all times. But He hates, therefore He is not All loving.
The only reason I found as to why God chose Isreal was in Deuteronomy 7 claiming they were few in number and God loved them for keeping the covenant even though later in the OT they don’t and God threatens the Jews-Jeremiah 19:7 In this place I will thwart the plans of the people of Judah and Jerusalem. I will deliver them over to the power of their enemies who are seeking to kill them. They will die by the sword at the hands of their enemies. I will make their dead bodies food for the birds and wild beasts to eat. God threatens His chosen people who “pay allegiance to other gods”: “And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them” (Jeremiah 13:14 KJV). Hosea 13:16 “They will fall by the sword, their infants will be dashed to the ground – their pregnant women will be ripped open.” I’m glad you agree God is NOT all loving. I think many on this forum would disagree.

I’ve ask Christians WHAT God is as you mention above. Some say He is beyond our comprehension and other define Him as an uncreated, always existing, all loving supernatural being? What do you think?

 

[D_Martin]

Pending Theist

Well being a theist you should know that many people try to make their god like themself, or at the least like what they think a god ought to be. Its a favorite theist pass time in religious sections of most philosophy web sites. Could be from up bringing and or erroneous theology taught in the churches or rejection of religion or whatever. There are many Christians that expect the scriptures to agree with their theology and if scripture doesn’t, they disregard it as “metaphorical”, but to prove their theology its all of the sudden literal, in their understanding of what the literal meaning of the text is, mind you.

What I think is irrelevant to the Truth, its what the Truth is, that is relevant. Hence the Word of God is the Truth for by His Word all things were made and nothing was made without the Word of God. All things are held together by the Power in the Word of God. Therefore that which is not like Him or at the least in agreement with Him is not in His Presence, and in darkness because God is not in darkness He is in the Light because His Word is Light. So lies and liars is something He wouldn’t care for to much considering its not like Him nor in agreement with Him.

 

[PendingTheist]

Very poetic and honest answer. However, can one ever be separated from God or as you say, "not in His presence? Wouldn’t that contradict an omnipresent God as in Psalm 139:7-8 “Where can I go to escape your spirit? Where can I flee to escape your presence? If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there. If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.” Or Proverbs 15:3 “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on those who are evil and those who are good.”

If there is a God, I see Him as Energy. It is neither created or destroyed as per the first law of thermodynamics. G=E=mc2. Scientists have a hard time describing energy as theists do their God. As per string theory, Subatomic particle behavior is determined by the vibration of energy which form the atom- molecules-matter. There is good arguement for a deistic God, but a Christian God requires too much faith to overcome my skeptism.

 

[D_Martin]

Very poetic and honest answer. However, can one ever be separated from God or as you say, "not in His presence? Wouldn’t that contradict an omnipresent God as in Psalm 139:7-8 “Where can I go to escape your spirit? Where can I flee to escape your presence? If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there. If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.” Or Proverbs 15:3 “The eyes of the Lord are in every place, keeping watch on those who are evil and those who are good.”

The writer states everywhere he goes God is there, but he doesn’t state God is in evil does he? Nor darkness. Just because, as it is written “The eyes of the Lord are in every place” doesn’t mean the Lord is in every place, no more then the eyes of a government are in every place. If a government can be aware of what is going on where it is not, then surly the Lord God can.

Also Isa:5:16: But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness.

To be sanctified in is to be separated in to in this case. The Lord may be aware of evil but that doesn’t make Him Present in evil, no more then you can be made aware of evil doing in the street, even the details, but that doesn’t mean you are present in amongst the doing thereof. Just because the camera gives you sight to see the crime, doesn’t mean you are there.

If there is a God, I see Him as Energy. It is neither created or destroyed as per the first law of thermodynamics. G=E=mc2. Scientists have a hard time describing energy as theists do their God. As per string theory, Subatomic particle behavior is determined by the vibration of energy which form the atom- molecules-matter. There is good arguement for a deistic God, but a Christian God requires too much faith to overcome my skeptism.

Many peoples problem can be that they have a misgiving about what faith is, many see it as “religion” western culture promotes that view. But one of the definitions of the word “religion” is system of belief. In that context one has faith, but in what is the question. Like most theist it seems you seek to construct your own system of belief. Lets face it, you trust something to be true and trustworthy and you believe it. Could be anything. What matters is where you place your faith, trust, belief.

Needless to say it is obvious that you believe there is a God a (Creator and Judge) but you don’t know God. As in a relationship. Its one thing to suspect there is a God and its another to know there is a God. As some believers say, to know that you know that you know. In order to know one must call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and ask Him to be his Lord and Savior. Because its between you and Him in the first place. The Lord Jesus came into the world so we can know God, to be worshiped in Truth and Spirit.

What Jesus has given us is the Life He has as the Son of God, to have and share in that relationship which is the Life He has. What Adam has given us in the flesh is what all who come into the world have. What Jesus Christ has given us is the Life in His Spirit that He has in the Presence of God.

You can invest what you have, (the ability to believe and trust) in lies, and no matter how honestly you might believe them, they are still lies.

May The Lord be with you Pending Theist, maybe you with become a actual priest who not only believes there is a God, but knows God (that is what a true priest is, that is different from a theist and a atheist)