1 John 5:13 - Whats the Catholic Response?

  • Thread starter Thread starter michaelgazin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

michaelgazin

Guest
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”

How is this verse in accordance with the very next lines where mortal sin is discussed? In what way does John mean we can **know **we have eternal life? Obviously this is against Catholic teaching, and it is in fact against his very next verses on mortal sins, so obviously the straight-forward interpretation is not what John intended here…what exactly does he mean by “know?”

Thanks in advance for the comments,
Michael
 
This is not against catholic teaching at all. To believe is to have eternal life…faith which is salvific must be accompanied by good works.
 
Okay, by “against catholic teaching,” I am referring to the notion that this introduces eternal security which is *not *taught by the Catholic Church. I believe the straight-forward interpretation is probably that of eternal security, however that is not John’s intent, nor a belief of the Church, so my question is what does this mean since it does not refer to eternal security?
 
I think that El Catolico is correct and as far as the scripture goes it is never easy to understand John’s writings because he tends to have a very deep theological emphasis. However, I think the answer to your question is that this assurance is answered in the next verse where John clarifies and mentions the fact that it is in obedience to the will of God in faith that we are actually assured. However, I don’t think it should be taken as a future event but a continual evryday occurance. I hope I haven’t confused you.
 
I know I am my parent’s daughter, and therefore am forever entitled to their love and a share of the family inheritance. But I have the free will and ability to reject it.

As a child of God, I know that I have an immortal soul. I have received the gift of eternal life. Our ever-faithful and consistent God will not arbitrarily change His mind and withdraw the gift. Whether I choose to accept or reject the gift, however, is up to me.

God has so much respect and love for us that He will allow us to walk away from the gift. If we choose to walk away, the consequences are predictable.

See below for further reinforcement for the Catholic position.

Mt 7:21-23 “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’”

Mt 13:20-23 “The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold.”

Rev 3:3-6 “Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
 
I suppose it is summed up in this excerpt from Catholic Answers:

“This means that one can have a reasoned assurance of salvation but not an absolute one. One cannot claim to “know” that one has eternal life without applying (and passing) the tests, and there is always the possibility that one could be self-deceived about whether one passes the tests. Thus assurance can be only relative, not absolute.”
 
It helps when we note that 1 John is a treatise against the Gnostics, who claimed the way to salvation was a special “knowledge” of Christ not given to others.

In this context, the verse is clear: believing in Christ is salvation, not some strange knowledge (Gk. gnosis). But it would be a mistake to take this verse by itself: in that very same epistle, St. John warns against claiming to know Christ but not loving one’s brother.

So this verse does not support OSAS. Indeed we know whether or not we are in a state of grace in the present moment. We know if we have rejected Christ through mortal sin. It does tell us that by believing in Christ and loving our brothers, we have an assurance that we are saved. This does not negate the warnings by St. Paul and by Jesus himself about the eternal fires awaiting those who call him “Lord” and yet fail to render love to those around us.
 
And then there’s the end-all of all verses 🙂

John 12:47-48

“And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, i do not condemn him, for i did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever REJECTS me AND does not accept me (both must apply) has something to judge him: the word that i spoke will condemn him on the last day.”

Why does the Church overlook these critical verses when they embrace the Gospel of John because of the other things he says?

It’s like protestants who pick and choose verses…

shrugs

Can anyone explain this?
 
michaelgazin said:
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”

How is this verse in accordance with the very next lines where mortal sin is discussed? In what way does John mean we can **know **we have eternal life? Obviously this is against Catholic teaching, and it is in fact against his very next verses on mortal sins, so obviously the straight-forward interpretation is not what John intended here…what exactly does he mean by “know?”

Thanks in advance for the comments,
Michael
Click to expand...

You have left too much unstated. What, specifically, do you feel contradicts Catholic teaching? Also, be very careful - you substituted “can know” for “may know” from the verse - why?

Phil
 
Nan S:
I know I am my parent’s daughter, and therefore am forever entitled to their love and a share of the family inheritance. But I have the free will and ability to reject it.
Click to expand...
The concept of “knowing” something is more vague and elusive than most of us would care to admit. What, exactly, does it mean to “know” something? For example, how exactly do you know you are your parents daughter? The concept of “knowing” varies from simply having good reason to believe something to absolute certainty. Think about it - we don’t have infallible knowledge of anything; except perhaps the knowledge that we have no infallible knowledge…

Phil
 
Oops…Is there a way to edit posts?

John 12:48 should read:

“Whoever REJECTS me AND does not accept MY WORDS (Both must apply) has something to judge him: the word that i spoke, it will condemn him on the last day.”

This according to the NAB version. I also have a revision of the Challoner-Rheims bible edited by Catholic Scholars which says the same thing.
 
michaelgazin said:
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Michael
Click to expand...

I guess we would need to know what Paul means by “those who believe in the name of the Son of God.” According to other Pauline letters and verse, he obviously doesn’t mean mere belief as we tend to define it today. Many Christans take this to mean that simply saying “I believe and accept my savior.” will guarantee eternal life. This would contradict Paul’s other teachings on the matter. We must take Scripture as a whole, not pick and choose what we believe, so I would say that accoding to Paul’s other letters, A believer is someone who has Faith in Jesus, is Baptized by the waters that save, works out his or her salvation in fear and trembling, perseveres to the end, holds fast to the Traditons passed down to them by Word or by Letter. Participates in the ministry of Confession, repents for sin before receiving Communion and discerns the true presence before receiving. Then we have lists of moral behavior we should follow in order to root out sin in the Body of Christ. We must life as a fully functioning Body of Christ.

Oh yeah and faith without works is dead… because faith is a relationship with God, and a relationship takes much more than just saying " I believe in you." Can you imagine a marriage like that? A fully abled person saying I love you and believe in you but I dont’ have to do anything to show it or help you or comfort you, because I already know you can’t divorce me." God doesn’t need us, but the least of His people do. It is also good for our maturity in the Faith to do good works.

This is just a quick response off the top of my busy, soccer mom on a game day, writing in between flipping pancakes head. 😃

I am sure there are more examples, and I could give numerous quotes if needed, but it would have to wait until tonight after I finish the dishes!
 
bad idea to post while cooking breakfast, I just burned by turkey bacon!!!

Also, I am way too distracted because I just realized that this is discussing a verse in John. Woah! Well, since Scripture must be taken as the Word of God and can’t contradict itself, then Paul’s lettes must apply here as well.
 
40.png
Caldera:
And then there’s the end-all of all verses 🙂

John 12:47-48

“And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, i do not condemn him, for i did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever REJECTS me AND does not accept me (both must apply) has something to judge him: the word that i spoke will condemn him on the last day.”

Why does the Church overlook these critical verses when they embrace the Gospel of John because of the other things he says?

It’s like protestants who pick and choose verses…

shrugs

Can anyone explain this?
Click to expand...
I’ll explain them, Caldera. I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to say that the Church overlooks these verses. On the contrary, they fit perfectly with the uniquely Catholic idea of venial and mortal sins. God does not condemn us - as the verse explains - because we simply “do not observe” his laws, which is why venial sins do not put us in the threat of damnation. However, as the verses point out, condemnation comes when we REJECT God, which is what Catholics see mortal sin as effecting. Mortal sin requires a conscious and premeditated knowledge that we are defying God in the action we are undertaking. We are condemned, not because of the action, but because of the intent to reject God. The verse, rather than being overlooked by the Church, is perfect support for the idea of venial and mortal sins, especially when taken with Scripture as a whole. Now, even if you disagree with my interpretation, it was a little presumptious to imply the Church is picking and choosing verses, especially since I’m sure you - like everyone in here - have not studied ALL of the Church documents, theological essays, and homilies throughout 2000 years. If an idiot like me can see how this fits with Church doctrine, I’m sure the much greater minds that have come before me didn’t simply skip it out of intellectual bias. I don’t mean to pick a fight or be snotty, but I thought the last couple lines of your post, especially the “shrugs” part were a little judgemental.
 
I have heard others ask about this passage with the great emphasis on the word know and defined in an absolute way.I have always concentrated on the word this ."I write this … What is this…It is the whole letter,every word as important as the next.

st julie
 
“you will see that “this” refers to acts of love of neighbor, love of God, holding to orthodox teaching, and so on. In other words, John is not giving a blank check for assurance of heaven. He is giving a conclusion of a long list of indicators by which a person can know he is saved. John agrees with James. Good works give a relative assurance that one is in good standing with God.”

Kenneth Howell
 
40.png
michaelgazin:
I suppose it is summed up in this excerpt from Catholic Answers:

“This means that one can have a reasoned assurance of salvation but not an absolute one. One cannot claim to “know” that one has eternal life without applying (and passing) the tests, and there is always the possibility that one could be self-deceived about whether one passes the tests. Thus assurance can be only relative, not absolute.”
Click to expand...
Hello,

Could you tell us where this quote is mentioned? Was it by an Apologist on this site or another poster? Do you think it was found the the Catechism?
My interpretation, for what it’s worth:

We are all created with eternal souls. Eternal life can be in heaven, with God or hell, with Satan.

There are people, who proclaim themselves saved, maybe they understand who Christ is, and they commit murder with no repentance. Do you think they are saved? Is their claim a lie? How does this action speak to non-believers, that it’s okay to commit whatever crime you like and you will still go to heaven?

Maybe the context Jesus was speaking in was meant for “true” believers. But who is the judge of who is and who is not a “true” believer? Jesus is our judge. When we reason we are saved, we tempt ourselves with pride. Look what Judas Iscariot did. Do you think he was saved?

Jesus prayed to The Father, His disciples not be put to the test. We need to do the same. Our work is not complete until every penny is repaid and the enemy is hovering over us, like a lion, waiting to devour its prey.

Maybe the author was pointing out that humility precedes being saved? Maybe it’s the reminder that we are saved by God’s grace and mercy?

We trust Jesus; we don’t trust ourselves or our own judgment. We can be saved in one moment and damned in the next. Our job is to “fight the good fight” and win, by God’s grace and merit, working in and through us. We understand that grace is lost the moment we turn inward and proclaim self-righteousness.

Peace,
Elizabeth
 
40.png
elizabeth4truth:
Hello,

Could you tell us where this quote is mentioned? Was it by an Apologist on this site or another poster? Do you think it was found the the Catechism?
Click to expand...
From a “special report” on the Chick Tracts, part 5:

catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p5.asp

Under the title “Assurance of Salvation,” though no author is listed.

Your post seems in line with the description as a “relative” assurance rather than “absolute,” when you state “But who is the judge of who is and who is not a “true” believer?” Only the Judge has absolute assurance.
 
Awfulthings9,

Are those verses not crystal clear enough to be taken for what they say? Do they need to be interpreted at all, or do they need to be interpreted in a way to make it fit what the Church teaches?

Could it be a contradiction? No, because the Church says Scripture is inerrant.

You give a fitting “interpretation” of those verses to make me believe what the Church says is true, but then when it comes to John chapter 6 for example, you might say “Why don’t you understand that the bread that Christ gives IS his flesh! It’s right there in Scripture plain as day!! Read it, pal!” 🙂
Protestants on the other hand will try to “interpret” John 6 while taking other verses literally.

Do you see what i’m trying to say? I’m not trying to create any problems, just looking for answers to the problems that Scripture poses at times.

As far as Mortal Sin = rejecting Christ in that verse, it must be darn near impossible to commit a mortal sin. I mean who in the world would flat out knowingly commit a mortal sin intentionally trying to go against Christ in a rejectful way? Nobody i know.
I’ve committed grave sins (technically as in what the church says is grave) at times out of weakness, but never any intent to reject Christ himself. Never!

Something doesn’t seem right somewhere. It’s either Scripture or the Church…

I’m trying to look for answers that will help me in my attempt at a “journey home”, but so far it’s not going well for me…

The deeper i look into what’s required to be believed, the harder it becomes. At one point i grew into a state of holiness after a major conversion experience. It happened in the Catholic Church, but at the time i didn’t even know my faith. It was so real that i was seriously thinking about dropping everything and becoming a priest! 🙂

But then things changed in my life and i ended up gradually falling away… Now i’m trying understand the faith that i never knew so i can get back to the Sacraments.

Because of what i’ve experienced in my life, i can’t help but wonder sometimes if the Church is too complex with the rules they’ve created for their own good. They have the power to bind and loose, which is scary for those who find it a little too hard to believe all the teachings and dogmas, etc that is required without any doubt!
 
Dear michaelgazin,
40.png
michaelgazin:
I suppose it is summed up in this excerpt from Catholic Answers:

“This means that one can have a reasoned assurance of salvation but not an absolute one. One cannot claim to “know” that one has eternal life without applying (and passing) the tests, and there is always the possibility that one could be self-deceived about whether one passes the tests. Thus assurance can be only relative, not absolute.”
Click to expand...
This puts me in mind of the hymn Blessed Assurance.

It seems to me that when Protestants speak of faith,
they mean a lively faith that embraces what Jesus
taught, which includes what St.James called “works.”

It’s always been of interest to me, that the concept
of being “self-deluded” is linked to salvation,
to passing a “test.”

In the Hebrew Scriptures, God tells the Israelites
that “I want mercy, not sacrifice.” In a word:
Stop deluding yourself that the observance of the
Mosaic Law will save you, if your heart is far from Me.
A shorter version might be: Stop sinning! and
trying to “hide” behind observance of the Law.

The point I’m trying to make is that I’ve learned
to sing Blessed Assurance with gusto!

The joy that comes in knowing that I try to
serve God the best I can, that I repent when
I sin, that my salvation is in the keeping of
Jesus, and that He will lead me home, brings
blessed relief of heart, soul and mind.
Not “relative assurance.”
Blessed Assurance.

This is miles apart from ‘presumption.’
It is recognizing my existential condition…a sinner.
Putting my faith in Jesus, following what He
taught in the gospels, and *trusting *Him to
keep His word in terms of my salvation.

This is not flippant ‘presumption.’
It is lively faith and trust.
Best,
reen12
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top