1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

[The_Old_Maid]

Well, I don’t know any reason why the voice of an archangel or the last trumpet would not be literal. The resurrection from the dead is literal.

Now literalistic is more like this: Psalms 50:10 says that God owns the cattle of 1,000 hills. The literalistic interpretation would be either that there are only 1,000 hills or that God doesn’t own the cattle on hill number 1,001.

In like manner, I have heard people say in all seriousness that Christ cannot return at night, or in a clear sky because those are not a day with clouds in the sky, and Christ departed into the sky into the clouds. Therefore it would not be in like manner as He left!

Someone asked how long the resurrection would take? C.S. Lewis had an interesting take on this:

This part of the adventure was the only one which seemed rather like a dream at the time and rather hard to remember properly afterward. Especially, one couldn’t say how long it had taken. Sometimes it seemed to have lasted only a few minutes, but at others it felt as if it might have gone on for years. Obviously, unless either the Door had grown very much larger or the creatures had suddenly grown as small as gnats, a crowd like that couldn’t ever have tried to get through it. But no one thought about that sort of thing at the time.

(“The Last Battle”)

 

[De_Maria]

I believe the imagery used accounts for the belief at the time of the heavens being located above the earth. If you wish to say it is an eyewitness account, that is fine.

You don’t believe it’s an eyewitness account?

St. Luke is the author of Acts and he said that he interviewed eyewitnesses in the Gospel of Luke.

Luke 1 I. The Prologue[a]
Chapter 1
1 Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us,

His book of Acts is a continuation of that treatise:

Acts 1New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

I. The Preparation for the Christian Mission
Chapter 1[a]
The Promise of the Spirit. 1 In the first book, Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught 2 until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 While meeting with them, he enjoined them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for “the promise of the Father[c] about which you have heard me speak; 5 for John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the holy Spirit.”…

 

[Gorgias]

Peter_M:

I believe the imagery used accounts for the belief at the time of the heavens being located above the earth. If you wish to say it is an eyewitness account, that is fine.

You don’t believe it’s an eyewitness account?

Take a deep breath and think for a moment. In that time and place, heaven was “up” and sheol was “down”. If Jesus “descended” to heaven, that would have provided a serious stumbling block to his believers. If Jesus simply popped out of existence, then his believers would have had to counter the objection that “he didn’t ascend to heaven”.

So, with that in mind, He ascended – until clouds obscured Him. Doesn’t mean that heaven is “up” – just that He was lifted. Doesn’t mean that the eyewitness account implies that heaven is “up”.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Peter_M:

I believe the imagery used accounts for the belief at the time of the heavens being located above the earth. If you wish to say it is an eyewitness account, that is fine.

You don’t believe it’s an eyewitness account?

Take a deep breath and think for a moment. In that time and place, heaven was “up” and sheol was “down”. If Jesus “descended” to heaven, that would have provided a serious stumbling block to his believers. If Jesus simply popped out of existence, then his believers would have had to counter the objection that “he didn’t ascend to heaven”.

So, with that in mind, He ascended – until clouds obscured Him. Doesn’t mean that heaven is “up” – just that He was lifted. Doesn’t mean that the eyewitness account implies that heaven is “up”.

That’s not the question. You took it at face value that it was an eyewitness account. I’m asking him whether he believes that the people witnessed Jesus enter a cloud and go up? Yes or no.

The question of where heaven is, is moot.

 

[Peter_M]

Interesting… levitation. Possibly; but I can’t help but believe that there has been a bit of embellishment. I’m not sure that the method of ascension is really what is important. That he “ascended” in the story is a way to make a finality of His earthly ministry, as he promises they will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them.

 

[Peter_M]

whether he believes that the people witnessed Jesus enter a cloud and go up? Yes or no.

Luke gives a shorter account of the ascension in Luke 24.51.

As he blessed them he parted from them and was taken up to heaven.

Do I believe that “the people” witnessed Jesus enter a cloud? I’m not sure. I think it’s an open question. For me it’s not possible to say yes or no.

 

[Gorgias]

Interesting… levitation. Possibly; but I can’t help but believe that there has been a bit of embellishment.

Well… it does follow stories of Jesus passing through locked doors…

I’m not sure that the method of ascension is really what is important.

For us in the 21st century, no. For 1st century Palestinian Christians? Yeah… probably important, as that’s what their impression of where heaven was “located” would be.

 

[Peter_M]

I agree… this helps in understanding the imagery as well as the reality for Christians in the 21st century.

 

[De_Maria]

Well… it does follow stories of Jesus passing through locked doors…

I agree… this helps in understanding the imagery as well as the reality for Christians in the 21st century.

Are you guys saying that you don’t believe in the supernatural? You don’t believe that Jesus could pass through locked doors. You don’t believe that Jesus could ascend into heaven.

Is that it?

 

[Mintaka]

Re: the Ascension, Jesus was fulfilling a lot of important Bible verses that way, as well as showing once again that He was Master of all the universe.

Re: the clouds, there’s a fair amount of Biblical and poetic association between thick dark or thick white clouds in the sky and the bright shekhinah glory around the Tabernacle. Clouds don’t just represent mystery symbolically; they really do hide things from sight, if you’re on the ground!

Clouds also are kind of two-sided. They contain rain and they shade the ground, which is good and hopeful. But they also can herald dangerous storms and winds, flash floods, crop-destroying hail, and even snow.

It kills me, how people tend to belitte the Bible’s use of nature symbolism, and to disregard any event that uses it as of course not true. But in everyday life, even atheist people are happy to see a rainbow; and even animals respond to the moods of the weather with changes in their own moods.

So of course it’s silly to say that Jesus “could not” come back, under certain weather conditions. It’s equally silly to think that He couldn’t or wouldn’t produce weather on a dime, to fit whatever effect He wanted. (Or, if you like, that He couldn’t arrange things from the beginning of time to make sure that things just happened the way He wanted them to.)

If you were God, and had power to do all things, why would you not make sure that the stage setting was always appropriate? If human speakers and actors can arrange things to affect their audience psychologically, why would they be more diligent about it than God?

 

[Gorgias]

Are you guys saying that you don’t believe in the supernatural? You don’t believe that Jesus could pass through locked doors. You don’t believe that Jesus could ascend into heaven.

Is that it?

No. @Peter_M seemed to be having a hard time with a “levitation” account, and I was reminding him that this isn’t out of line with the post-resurrection appearances in which Jesus wasn’t held up by locked doors.

 

[Peter_M]

It would depend on what “the supernatural” means. To believe that the descriptions of Jesus’ post resurrection appearances, or the Ascension, have been embellished by 1st century cosmogony does not mean that a person doesn’t believe in “the supernatural”.

Put another way, if you believe in “the supernatural”, you must believe how these events are described as being literally true…

I don’t think the resurrection could not be called supernatural, and the evidence for that is far more solid than for later interpolations of events based on so-called eye-witness accounts of levitation on a cloud, ascending up to heaven.