1 Tim 2:15 - Salvation through faith and works

[aridite]

“[Women] will be saved through motherhood, provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.”

Has anyone seen this text used to support the Catholic understanding that we are saved through faith and good works? I thought it a nice text since it explicitly mentions salvation. I have a copy of The Bible Thumper by Jim Burnham, Brian Butler and Matthew Pinto (Ascension Press 2004), but in my scan of their many verses on faith and works I don’t see this particular one.

I realize that it is controversial since it follows Paul’s instruction that women may not speak in church or have authority over a man. It also seems to require childbirth for salvation, and not all women need to have children to be saved (e.g., nuns). But it clearly says some works are as necessary as faith.

Would the controversy out-weigh the “proof text” value?

 

[Lazerlike42]

"[Women]
will be saved through motherhood, provided women persevere in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Has anyone seen this text used to support the Catholic understanding that we are saved through faith and good works? I thought it a nice text since it explicitly mentions salvation. I have a copy of The Bible Thumper by Jim Burnham, Brian Butler and Matthew Pinto (Ascension Press 2004), but in my scan of their many verses on faith and works I don’t see this particular one.

I realize that it is controversial since it follows Paul’s instruction that women may not speak in church or have authority over a man. It also seems to require childbirth for salvation, and not all women need to have children to be saved (e.g., nuns). But it clearly says some works are as necessary as faith.

Would the controversy out-weigh the “proof text” value?

The controversy is really nothing if a person actually considers A) the culture, and B) the Greek verbiage and grammar, which show that basically Paul says women can’t have authority over men in church. At the time, there was a bit of a sexual revolution going on (especially in Corinth), in which women wanted to show that they could go around sleeping with different men and whatnot (and consequently, not wearing a hat was a way of saying one was “available,” which is part of the reason for it’s requirement in church). There are a million different interpretations for this verse. I’m not sure what the Catholic one is.

That being said, it would be of vital importance to know what the meaning of this verse is before using it to prove anything. What if it doesn’t refer to salvation, for instance, as some interpretations hold?

 

[Malachi4U]

Hum???

 

[aridite]

Lazerlike42:

The controversy is really nothing if a person actually considers A) the culture, and B) the Greek verbiage and grammar, which show that basically Paul says women can’t have authority over men in church. At the time, there was a bit of a sexual revolution going on (especially in Corinth), in which women wanted to show that they could go around sleeping with different men and whatnot (and consequently, not wearing a hat was a way of saying one was “available,” which is part of the reason for it’s requirement in church). There are a million different interpretations for this verse. I’m not sure what the Catholic one is.

In thinking about this, I think the controversy can be deflected. Paul is clear that he thinks virginity is a preferred state of life (all things being equal) so this particular good work, motherhood, is not necessary, strictly speaking. But some good works are: acts of faith, love, holiness, self-control (which vary according to one’s state in life).

Lazerlike42:

That being said, it would be of vital importance to know what the meaning of this verse is before using it to prove anything. What if it doesn’t refer to salvation, for instance, as some interpretations hold?

“Prove” is too strong, and there are other texts which reflect the Catholic truth of salvation through faith and works. But, it seems clear that 1 Tim 2:12 is referring to salvation: “she will be saved . . .” Is there another way to take this? Paul seems to be saying that gossiping or chattering in church, trying to usurp the leadership of the priests is not necessary for salvation, but is disruptive to the community. Doing good works according to one’s state in life is necessary for salvation (assuming one has been given the grace of faith). Is there another possible meaning based on its context?

 

[kaycee]

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

 

[michaelgazin]

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[michaelgazin]

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[RyanL]

kaycee,

Which of the following from the Decree Concerning Justification (Council of Trent) do you disagree with?

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

 But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

 For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no     more grace.[46]

1. Rom. 3:24; 5:1.
2. Heb. 11:6.
3. Rom. 11:6.

I’m having trouble finding where you disagree with the Church…are you sure you know our position?

God bless,
RyanL

 

[aridite]

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Right. We are saved by God’s grace. And faith is necessary, just not faith alone, but “faith working through love.”

But what do you do with 1 Tim 2:15? Or James 2:24? Or Mt 7:21-27? Or Gal 5:6? Do these not count?

 

[Grace_and_Glory]

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Well, this discussion was about salvation through faith and works in the passage from Timothy, but it was good of you to mention a verse about the necessity of baptism- “the washing of regeneration.”