1 Tim 4:10: Study of 1 Tim and Universalism Continued

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all your help in my study of 1 Tim. I am now on Chapter 4 and verse 10 challenges me. What does it mean?

For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

The end for which we strive is the promise of a good both life here and hereafter, even though Jesus did not promise his followers an easy ride here on earth (*Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword (Mt 10:34)). * Elsewhere he said those who follow him will receive a hundredfold now in this age…and in the age to come eternal life (Mk 10:30).

So question one is whether believers have a good life here on earth. Experience shows us that bad things happen to good people and good people can suffer hugely physically and mentally. So the answer here is clear to me.

A more difficult problem is that in this verse God is called ‘the Savior of all people’

Does this mean Jesus is not our Savior, or that Jesus is God?

Again we are back to one of my hobby-horses. Are all saved? If I end up in hell I am not saved. If all are saved, none are damned; hence no one goes to hell. But the Church teaches that hell is possible for us if we refuse to respond to God’s free gift of grace. So thus if language means anything all are** not** saved, so God is not the Savior of all. How does one get around this?

(Also if grace is given to all, it is not a free gift, it is an entitlement. This is a bit off topic).

I like the bit about believers especially being saved. It means it is better to be a believer than not.

Collins reminds us that life in the present is not meant to be easy (*‘Indeed, all who want to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted’ *(2 Tim 3:12)).

Collins talks of ‘God’s will of universal salvation and its realization through Christ Jesus’. If God is almighty what he wills happens. That is what almighty means. The subtle distinctions of scholastics cannot blur reality.

Please give me your views.

 

[PJM]

=NoelFitz;Thanks for all your help in my study of 1 Tim. I am now on Chapter 4 and verse 10 challenges me. What does it mean?

THE REPLY:

The end for which we strive is the promise of a good both life here and hereafter, even though Jesus did not promise his followers an easy ride here on earth (*Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword (Mt 10:34)). * Elsewhere he said those who follow him will receive a hundredfold now in this age…and in the age to come eternal life (Mk 10:30).

So question one is whether believers have a good life here on earth. Experience shows us that bad things happen to good people and good people can suffer hugely physically and mentally. So the answer here is clear to me.

A “good life on earth” does not imply lack of chlalanges, pain or sufering.One part of the Bible cannot contradict another part. **Luke.9: 23 **"And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” PJM

REPLY:

A more difficult problem is that in this verse God is called ‘the Savior of all people’

Does this mean Jesus is not our Savior, or that Jesus is God?

Again we are back to one of my hobby-horses. Are all saved? If I end up in hell I am not saved. If all are saved, none are damned; hence no one goes to hell. But the Church teaches that hell is possible for us if we refuse to respond to God’s free gift of grace. So thus if language means anything all are** not** saved, so God is not the Savior of all. How does one get around this?

Notice the diferent use of who by Christ: Mark 14:22-24 And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. AND Luke.2: 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child [Jesus] is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, PJM

OFF COURSE IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL, BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

It MEANS friends that Salvation IS ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH CHRIST! AMEN?

Heb.5: 9 “and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”

REPLY

(Also if grace is given to all, it is not a free gift, it is an entitlement. This is a bit off topic).

I like the bit about believers especially being saved. It means it is better to be a believer than not.

GRACE is always and everytime a GIFT from God. Having said this God obligates Himself to OFFER [a Gift] “sufficient grace” that everyone has the potential [blesed with he God-like-Spiriual Gifts of mind, intelect, freewill and soul to know God and do what is necessary fo there salvation. A procees that necissitates FAITH as its beginning, and WORKS as its proof. PJM

REPLY

Collins reminds us that life in the present is not meant to be easy (*‘Indeed, all who want to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted’ *(2 Tim 3:12)).

Collins talks of ‘God’s will of universal salvation and its realization through Christ Jesus’. If God is almighty what he wills happens. That is what almighty means. The subtle distinctions of scholastics cannot blur reality.

Please give me your views.

There is a GRAVE misunderstanding of term being used here.

It is GODS DESIRE NOT GODS WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED! That is a truth of significally diffferent meaning. Were it actually God’s WILL [as many propose and choose in error to believe] it would be a done deal. God would have to be AN EVIL GOD, having selected some [others say all] to go to heaven or hell WITHOUT REGUARD TO RIGHT AND WRONG; GOOD OR EVIL.

FUTHER This foolish notion completely ignores why and how God made us [He is after all Our Creator]. There would be ABSOLUTELY no need for a conscience; intellect, a mind and a freewill which every human person has. If we were simply “saved” one could sin as greviously and as often as one desires with NO CONSEQUENCES.

YET the BIBLE gives super abundent example of Gods WATH and Abhorance of sin. Jursalem complately destroyed TWICE; Moses not allowed into the Promised Land for simply hitting the rock [for water] twice not once as directed; and look at Adam and Eve [and us] sin, death, pain, work all introduced because “they ate an apple.”

This auto salvation theory ignores all of this. REDICILIOUS! As is the idea that one is saved simply by having Faith. Google “sinners prayer” and educate yourself. PJM

 

[NoelFitz]

PJM

Thank you for a solid, deep and challenging reply.

It, in turn, demands a thoughtful answer. I am a bit out of my depth, so I may be off-beam.

We agree the good Catholic may suffer in this life.

You do not answer whether Paul in this verse considers Jesus as God, or that Jesus is not our Savior as the Father is.

You wrote:

It MEANS friends that Salvation IS ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH CHRIST! AMEN?

I agree with this, as every Christian must.

But when you write:

OFF COURSE IS THE SAVIOR OF ALL, BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

It MEANS friends that Salvation IS ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH CHRIST! AMEN?

So really is God or Christ our Savior and when we say he is the savior of all we do not mean all are saved?

So God/Jesus is the Savior of all does not mean God/Jesus saves all!

You say God has an obligation to give Grace. I wonder, if this is so God is not free.

I asked that over-subtle distinctions should not be given, You claim God desires all to he saved, he does not will all to be saved.

You wrote:

FUTHER This foolish notion completely ignores why and how God made us

In school over 50 years ago I learned God made us to know love and serve him here on earth and by this means to be happy with him forever in heaven. If we do not get to heaven God seems incapable of getting us into heaven.

I see in 1 Thess 4:3a

For this is the will of God, your sanctification:

Will (θέλημα ,thelema) is used here not desire (εὐδοκία, eudokia or ἐπιθυμία, epithumia).