M
MarkA16
Guest
I read this this morning. What does this mean? I think I know that the Book of 1 Timothy was supposedly a warning to teachers (i.e. deacons)?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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M
mercygate
Guest
Could you focus the question for us a little?
M
MarkA16
Guest
What does that passage mean? I haven’t read the whole book since I don’t have time right now (gotta go to school). Isn’t this what the Catholic Church is?
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Tim 4:1-16
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1 Tim 4:1-16
A
awalt
Guest
From Harper’s, this said it pretty ell I think (I agree it sounds like an attack against Gnosticism):
**** It is natural that, after a statement of “the secret of our religion” (3:16), the errors of false teachers should be exposed. Some church members have evidently fallen victim to a gnosticizing insistence that marriage is evil and abstinence from food is the way to perfection. The basis for this claim was a belief that Christians were already living a heavenly existence (2 Tim. 2:17-18) that denied sexual differences and refused bodily appetites. On the contrary, God’s creation is good (Gen. 1:31) and food is his gift (Ps. 24:1, which may be the “word of God” of 1 Tim. 4:5) to be enjoyed (so 6:17; see 1 Cor. 10:23-32, highlighting thankfulness as our response that consecrates all workaday activity).
Timothy is now summoned to fulfill his office as a “noble servant of Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 4:6). The idioms are athletic but also drawn from the calling of the Stoic ideal person, Christianized to promote “the practice of religion”). Genuine self-control is set over against the spurious regimen in 4:1-3; interpreters have noted links with Colossians 2:16-23. A fragment of “personal conversation” between Paul and the then youthful Timothy may be seen in 1 Tim. 4:12-16. It is an intensely warm paragraph with Paul’s language evident in v. 12. Timothy’s call to service is traced to a charisma (Gk., “gift”) that came via the prophetic sign (see 1:18) and the approval of the elders whose hands were placed on him (cf. Num. 27:18-23) as a mark of either a transference of authority or a recognition that he was already gifted by the Spirit. Contrast 2 Tim. 1:6, which speaks only of Paul’s imposition of hands.
The function Timothy discharges is that of an “apostolic and prophetic teacher” (to quote Mart. Pol. 16). Pastoral and liturgical responsibilities include the public reading of Scripture (1 Tim. 4:13); proclamation that seems to be tied to the exposition of scriptural words with a dash of “exhortation”; and teaching that emphasizes the catechetical training of believers. Timothy must also practice his faith in devoted living, so that his “progress” (v. 15) needs to outstrip the advance of false teachings (see 2 Tim. 2:16; 3:9). Only along the path of patient duty lies his and his hearers’ “salvation.”
%between%
**** It is natural that, after a statement of “the secret of our religion” (3:16), the errors of false teachers should be exposed. Some church members have evidently fallen victim to a gnosticizing insistence that marriage is evil and abstinence from food is the way to perfection. The basis for this claim was a belief that Christians were already living a heavenly existence (2 Tim. 2:17-18) that denied sexual differences and refused bodily appetites. On the contrary, God’s creation is good (Gen. 1:31) and food is his gift (Ps. 24:1, which may be the “word of God” of 1 Tim. 4:5) to be enjoyed (so 6:17; see 1 Cor. 10:23-32, highlighting thankfulness as our response that consecrates all workaday activity).
Timothy is now summoned to fulfill his office as a “noble servant of Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 4:6). The idioms are athletic but also drawn from the calling of the Stoic ideal person, Christianized to promote “the practice of religion”). Genuine self-control is set over against the spurious regimen in 4:1-3; interpreters have noted links with Colossians 2:16-23. A fragment of “personal conversation” between Paul and the then youthful Timothy may be seen in 1 Tim. 4:12-16. It is an intensely warm paragraph with Paul’s language evident in v. 12. Timothy’s call to service is traced to a charisma (Gk., “gift”) that came via the prophetic sign (see 1:18) and the approval of the elders whose hands were placed on him (cf. Num. 27:18-23) as a mark of either a transference of authority or a recognition that he was already gifted by the Spirit. Contrast 2 Tim. 1:6, which speaks only of Paul’s imposition of hands.
The function Timothy discharges is that of an “apostolic and prophetic teacher” (to quote Mart. Pol. 16). Pastoral and liturgical responsibilities include the public reading of Scripture (1 Tim. 4:13); proclamation that seems to be tied to the exposition of scriptural words with a dash of “exhortation”; and teaching that emphasizes the catechetical training of believers. Timothy must also practice his faith in devoted living, so that his “progress” (v. 15) needs to outstrip the advance of false teachings (see 2 Tim. 2:16; 3:9). Only along the path of patient duty lies his and his hearers’ “salvation.”
%between%
M
mercygate
Guest
Your profile says you are Catholic but you present the King James version of this chapter, which causes me to raise a questioning eyebrow – not that you couldn’t have a KJV in the house, but if you’re Catholic, why would you not be reading the NAB, RSV-CE, or Douay-Rheims translation?
Let me bold the parts that I believe may have caught your attention.
Paul is referring to gnostic teachings that have begun to creep intio the Christian community: teachings such as that Jesus did not have a flesh-and-blood body. I.e., “doctrines of devils.”
You believe perhaps that the Catholic Church speaks “lies in hypocrisy?”
Perhaps you are thinking that the discipline of clerical celibacy (which is derived entirely from scriptural and dominical – that is, from Jesus himself – mandate) amounts to “forbidding to marry?” The Catholic Church by no means forbids marriage. On the contrary, recognizing the importance our Lord gave to it at Cana, we consider it a divinely ordained sacrament. A previous poster has shown the gnostic teaching to which Paul refers. After all, Paul was not married and counseled others that it would be better if everyone could be like him. There is no “forbidding to marry” in the Catholic Church.
Ditto abstaining from meats. Jesus assumes that we will fast ("When you fast . . .) and there is nothing problematic about abstaining from some foods at some times in order to focus the spirit. Catholics are not required to be vegetarians.
So in answer to your question: No. The Catholic Church has not “departed from the faith,” does not heed “seducing spirits” or teach “doctrines of devils,” or speak hypocrisy. Nor does it forbid marriage or command abstaining from meats as principles of faith.
V
Verita
Guest
This passage is one reason it’s very important to have a healthy view of good and evil. One must always remember that evil is not a thing of its self. Evil is merely a corruption of good. If one does not remember this one might start to think that certain things are inherently wrong such as drinking alcohol, or abstaining from meat, or any number of things.
But alcohol is not evil. Overindulging in alcohol is wrong. Abstaining from meat isn’t evil. Doing it for the wrong reasons could be. Likewise, abstaining from marriage is not wrong. St. Paul himself encouraged everyone to do it! However, forbidding everyone to marry or doing it for a wrong reason would be.
But alcohol is not evil. Overindulging in alcohol is wrong. Abstaining from meat isn’t evil. Doing it for the wrong reasons could be. Likewise, abstaining from marriage is not wrong. St. Paul himself encouraged everyone to do it! However, forbidding everyone to marry or doing it for a wrong reason would be.
M
MarkA16
Guest
I have a NAB The Catholic Youth Bible. The passage was looked up in google because I didn’t feel like typing it. Also I was in a rush to go to school, thinking that no matter the version it would somewhat mean the same. But yeah, I have New American Bible.
I just wanted to know to whom Timothy was talking about (what church). I couldn’t think of any other church than the Catholic church since many people think it’s a church that teaches false doctrines.
M
mercygate
Guest
It’s Paul who is “talking” and he is addressing the church in Ephesus, as the opening paragraph of chapter 1 makes clear.
For an on line Bible, I like the RSV (even though it’s not the Catholic edition) because the RSV is a really tight translation: better than the NAB. This site has a great search engine.
The Vatican web site has the NAB on line.
C’mon back. Ask questions. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here. Wait until Church Militant gets hold of one of your questions. Whew! He’ll blow you away!
Are you in high school?
M
MarkA16
Guest
Yes I am. Morse High School in San Diego.
K
kleary
Guest
The reason you could not think of any other Church except for the Catholic Church is because of the failure to hold to Sacred Tradition.
In other words, Sacred Tradition held to by the Church enlightens us as who is being singled out here and Sacred Tradition tells us the Gnostics who commanded their followers not to eat flesh meat and also not to marry. This was because they believed the flesh, and all physical matter to be evil.
Now if you abandon Tradition, as the Protestant Reformers taught their followers, and apply that verse written 2000 years ago to today then it is easy to come up with something else other than the Gnostics, who then became the Waldenses and Albiguinses later down the road- for they also taught the same- flesh is evil and so is the sexual act in marriage so marriage was forbidden in their religion- even for lay people- same as the Gnostics.
This goes down the line to the Iconoclasts as well and eventually to the Reformers themselves- shown by their rejection of the Eucharist and images in worship…everything “reduced to spirit” for matter is evil so to say.
Ken
D
deb1
Guest
There were Gnostic’s alive during the time period who believed that no one should marry. Paul, himself, was celibate, so he couldn’t have been condemning the desire to stay unmarried.
M
mercygate
Guest
Go Tigers. Well, y’all keep on coming back and asking questions. We love it when sharp young people are eager to learn about Scripture and their faith.
Did you find the answer I gave you about the putatively anti-Catholic points in 1 Tim 4 to be satisfactory?
J
jbuck919
Guest
You have paraphrased the wrong passage. You should be quoting from 2 Timothy, the writing of a man was was about to be martyred ((probably not St. Paul, but it might has well have been).
Let not false teachers teach you false things, which you shall hear with eagar ears. As for me, my time of reckoning has come. I have finished the race, I have fought the good fight. I have kept the faith. Hecneforth there is laid up for me the crown of righenoosness, which the Lord, the riighteous judge, has set aside for me as for all who have loved his coming.
Let not false teachers teach you false things, which you shall hear with eagar ears. As for me, my time of reckoning has come. I have finished the race, I have fought the good fight. I have kept the faith. Hecneforth there is laid up for me the crown of righenoosness, which the Lord, the riighteous judge, has set aside for me as for all who have loved his coming.
T
Tom
Guest
Mark, you might like the Douay-Rheims translation also. It predates the KJV, and it’s Catholic. The online can be found at: www.drbo.orgIt’s Paul who is “talking” and he is addressing the church in Ephesus, as the opening paragraph of chapter 1 makes clear.
For an on line Bible, I like the RSV (even though it’s not the Catholic edition) because the RSV is a really tight translation: better than the NAB. This site has a great search engine.
The Vatican web site has the NAB on line.
C’mon back. Ask questions. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here. Wait until Church Militant gets hold of one of your questions. Whew! He’ll blow you away!
Are you in high school?
- Status