10 commandments question

[alt101]

i found this comparison of the “protestant commandments” vs. the “catholic commandments”…

Most common Protestant listing:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy
Honour thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
Thou shalt not covet

Latin Catholic listing:

Thou shalt not have other gods besides Me
Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord thy God in vain
Remember to keep holy the Lord’s day
Honor thy father and thy mother
Thou shalt not murder
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods

it appears that the 2nd commandment from the protestant list, is taken out, and replaced with the splitting of “thou shalt not covet” into, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife” and “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”

i read that it was because “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image” is covered under “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”

but to me, it seems that " Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image” are, for one, two different things entirely, and also, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife” and “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods” would both be explained more simply by just saying “Thou shalt not covet”…

so why did they take out the commandment about making graven images, just to make the distinction between thy “neighbor’s wife” and “thy neighbor’s goods” when, there really is no difference according to the commandments?

thanks in advance!

 

[GJx86]

There’s a long discussion of this here that you may find interesting.

 

[LilyM]

They didn’t take any of the commandments out. The way you’ve listed the commandments is incredibly shorthanded and abbreviated when one actually reads them either in Scripture or in any other discussion of them (eg the Catechism).

Your Latin commandments should really read:

1. Thou shalt have no false gods before me, neither shalt thou make or worship *idols *’ (it’s not correct to just say ‘images’, since ‘images’ means ANY image, including any photographs or paintings of any person or object whatsoever)

And for mine, since worshipping an idol means worshipping any creature as a false god, it does in effect mean the same thing as ‘placing another god before Me’. They really are similar enough that they can justifiably be put together.

Whereas coveting someone’s wife comes under the deadly sin of lust, which is different from wanting their goods (which is either envy or avarice).

In any event, it’s absolutely a distinction without a meaningful difference - it’s not like Catholics edited the prohibition against idols out of our editions of the Bible or anything, so they’re there for everyone to know.

 

[Holly3278]

The Catholic version of the Ten Commandments is the correct version.

 

[thistle]

THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

1. I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of
   the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not
   have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols
   for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above
   or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
   you shall not bow down before them or worship them.
   For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting
   punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children
   of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth
   generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth
   generation, on the children of those who love me and keep
   my commandments.
2. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
4. Honour your father and mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.
9. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour’s possessions.

 

[Sepharad]

The Catholic version of the Ten Commandments is the correct version.

What I always found curious, is that the traditional Jewish version fits with the Protestant one, and not with the Catholic one.

Here is a rough outline I just found online, by Rabbi Isaac Leeser (a 19th century American Jewish rabbi, translator of the first American Jewish Bible into English):

jewish-history.com/catechism/catech07.htm

 

[mercygate]

If you look at the list, there are really about 14 commandments. Neither the Jewish, Protestant, nor Catholic list truly reflects the various versions in Scripture. They are just short-hand for convenience in teaching. Some Lutherans, BTW, use the “Catholic” version.

The way I see it, the commandment about images is about images made “to thyself” – objects of worship AS God. Y’know: like Aaron and the golden calf? Since God Himself commands the making of images, the idea of images in and of themselves is not the problem.

Taking the commandments concerning covetousness as two makes the important distinction between one’s spouse and one’s chattel. I find that to be reasonable.

That said, I learned the Commandments as an Episcopalian – ALL of the text, even “thy manservant and thy maidservant and the stranger within thy gates”. So I still think of the VII commandment as adultery. Takes time. But since ALL the commandments are in there – whatever version you use – I call this a detail not to break a sweat over.

 

[Sepharad]

If you look at the list, there are really about 14 commandments. Neither the Jewish, Protestant, nor Catholic list truly reflects the various versions in Scripture. They are just short-hand for convenience in teaching. Some Lutherans, BTW, use the “Catholic” version.

The way I see it, the commandment about images is about images made “to thyself” – objects of worship AS God. Y’know: like Aaron and the golden calf? Since God Himself commands the making of images, the idea of images in and of themselves is not the problem.

Taking the commandments concerning covetousness as two makes the important distinction between one’s spouse and one’s chattel. I find that to be reasonable.

That said, I learned the Commandments as an Episcopalian – ALL of the text, even “thy manservant and thy maidservant and the stranger within thy gates”. So I still think of the VII commandment as adultery. Takes time. But since ALL the commandments are in there – whatever version you use – I call this a detail not to break a sweat over.

I agree with you, that the prohibition is against graven images made “unto thyself”; otherwise, how could God have commanded to have the angels made for the Ark?

But, you see, when the Catholic church makes graven images, they ARE making images “unto themselves”, and so would be prohibited, you see? I don’t recall even the Catholic church teaching that God commanded them to make graven images of saints, etc.

 

[LJN21]

But, you see, when the Catholic church makes graven images, they ARE making images “unto themselves”, and so would be prohibited, you see? I don’t recall even the Catholic church teaching that God commanded them to make graven images of saints, etc.

I wondered when that was going to come up.

Negative.

Images of Saints are not made to be worshiped as a god. They serve the same purpose of those pictures of your dead saintly Great-Great Grandmother. They are a symbol of love and respect.

And before this comes up to. Yes, there are prayers to Saints put the purpose is not worship. They simply asking the Saint to pray to God for us, just like you would ask a friend to pray for you.

 

[Sepharad]

I wondered when that was going to come up.

Negative.

Images of Saints are not made to be worshiped as a god. They serve the same purpose of those pictures of your dead saintly Great-Great Grandmother. They are a symbol of love and respect.

And before this comes up to. Yes, there are prayers to Saints put the purpose is not worship. They simply asking the Saint to pray to God for us, just like you would ask a friend to pray for you.

But I have never prayed to or before pictures of any family members.

 

[LJN21]

But I have never prayed to or before pictures of any family members.

pray
–verb (used with object)

1. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to (God or an object of worship).
2. to offer (a prayer).
3. to bring, put, etc., by praying: to pray a soul into heaven.
   4. to make earnest petition to (a person).
4. to make petition or entreaty for; crave: She prayed his forgiveness.
5. to offer devout petition, praise, thanks, etc., to God or to an object of worship.
6. to enter into spiritual communion with God or an object of worship through prayer.
   –verb (used without object)
   8. to make entreaty or supplication, as to a person or for a thing.

 

[mercygate]

I agree with you, that the prohibition is against graven images made “unto thyself”; otherwise, how could God have commanded to have the angels made for the Ark?

But, you see, when the Catholic church makes graven images, they ARE making images “unto themselves”, and so would be prohibited, you see? I don’t recall even the Catholic church teaching that God commanded them to make graven images of saints, etc.

No. We are not worshiping images or treating thims as God. The use of images in the Christian tradition gradually emerged over the first five centuries, partly in response to the absence of a prohibition against images in non-Jewish (especially Roman) culture, where portraiture was common.

The acceptance of images began with the Person of Jesus Christ, whom Paul refers to as “the image of the livng God.” In the Old Testament period, God could not be portrayed in any way. He was beyond imaging. No can do.

With the Incarnation, the un-image-able acquires a human face. Early images of Jesus were, however, not portraits at all but depictions of His work. You see him most frequently (88 times in the catacombs alone) looking like a typical pagan/Roman shepherd carrying a sheep on his shoulders. No beard. Short hair. Short tunic. Most often without a halo.

The “portrait” model comes in after the sixth-century discovery of a cloth with an image on it “not made by human hands” that shows the face of a man, bearing the marks of the Passion, and purported to be the face of the crucified Christ. This is where we first encounter long hair and a beard.

The earliest explicitly personal Christian iconography derives its conventons from Roman funerary portraiture.

The oldest known icon of Christ is this:

re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/m7/3797744063

It is done in a similar style and in exactly the same materials as funerary portraits from Roman Egypt:

http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/25/f10/465193340

 

[scaron]

If you look at the list, there are really about 14 commandments.

So Mel Brooks was right!

History of the world Part 1:

Moses comes down from the mountain carrying three stone tablets …

MOSES: The Lord your God has given us these Fifteen …

(Drops one tablet - it shatters into a thousand peices)

MOSES: these Ten Commandments …

Sorry, I couldn’t resist when I saw that comment, and this is (to my 8 year old sense of humor) one of the funniest moments on film!

Humor is one of His creations too!