144000 male virgins

[Kaily]

Someone asked about this verse in scripture neither one of us have heard of the male virgins part, I’ve only heard the number which I know is symbolic, of 144,000. Can someone explain the male virgins part and why doesn’t it mention this in the bible, my version doesn’t say male virgins, but 144,000

Thanks,
Kaily

 

[bones_IV]

Revelation 7:4-8
"And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, twelve thousand out of the tribe of Judah, twelve of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.

The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) is the symbol of totality that is, the new Israel. The Gentiles are not included in this version but will come in the next version. It also symbolizes the Jews who had converted to Christianity apart from those who had rejected Christ. The seal is the mark symbolizing of the character of Baptism to show that each soul is destined for eternal life.

Hope this helps you.

Padre Pio “The Rosary is the Weapon.”

 

[puzzleannie]

I must be missing something, I have never heard or read a commentary that equated the “seal” of the 144M elect with virginity.

 

[RSiscoe]

puzzleannie:

I must be missing something, I have never heard or read a commentary that equated the “seal” of the 144M elect with virginity.

Keep that in mind the next time the Jehovah’s Witnesses come to your door.

 

[BibleReader]

bones_IV:

Revelation 7:4-8
"And I heard the number of the sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand sealed, out of every tribe of the sons of Israel, twelve thousand out of the tribe of Judah, twelve of the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand of the tribe of Gad, twelve thousand of the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand of the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand of the tribe of Manasseh, twelve thousand of the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand of the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand of the tribe of Issachar, twelve thousand of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand of the tribe of Joseph, twelve thousand sealed out of the tribe of Benjamin.

The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) is the symbol of totality that is, the new Israel. The Gentiles are not included in this version but will come in the next version. It also symbolizes the Jews who had converted to Christianity apart from those who had rejected Christ. The seal is the mark symbolizing of the character of Baptism to show that each soul is destined for eternal life.

Hope this helps you.

Padre Pio “The Rosary is the Weapon.”

Hi, Bones.

You may be being a little too restrictive in your interp, here.

The New Testament typically incorporates the Gentiles into the meaning of the Twelve Tribes, at least somewhat. Witness last Sunday’s gospel…

**Gospel
**Mt 4:12.23 or 4:12-17

When Jesus heard that John had been arrested,
he withdrew to Galilee.
He left Nazareth and went to live in Capernaum by the sea,
in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali,
that what had been said through Isaiah the prophet
might be fulfilled:
**Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
**the way to the sea, beyond the Jordan,
**Galilee of the Gentiles,
**the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light,
on those dwelling in a land overshadowed by death
light has arisen.

Because the Bible does this persistently, when I deduced the meaning of “12” in the Bible, I gave it the denominationally-ambiguous meaning, “All of the tribes of God’s people.”

“10” means “very many.”

So, I would interpret 144,000 to mean 10 x 10 x 10 x 12 x 12 or “very very very many of all of the tribes of all of the tribes of God’s people” – in other words, a vast, vast assembly.

 

[Kaily]

Thank you for your replies,

I wasn’t really wondering about the number 144000 though, I understand that, but about the male virgins, where did that come from?

Thanks,
Kaily

 

[Fidelis]

**From the Navarre Bible Commentary on The Book of Revelation commenting on the passage cited above: **

1-17. This chapter consists of two visions designed to illustrate God’s protection of Christians and the happy circumstances of the martyrs. The victory of the Church is depicted–of the entire Church, made up of people from the four points of the compass (vv. 9-12). What is not so clear, however, is who the one hundred and fort four thousand are, drawn from the twelve tribes of Israel, whom an angel has marked with the seal of the living God (vv. 1-8). Some commentators interpret them as all being Christians of Jewish background (Judaeo-Christians). Others say that they are those who make up the new Israel which St Paul speaks about in Galatians 6:17; that is, all the baptized viewed first as still engaged in their battle (vv. 1-8) and then after they have won
victory (vv. 9-17). The most plausible interpretation is that the one
hundred and forty four thousand stand for the Jews converted to
Christianity (as distinct from those not converted)–the ‘remnant of
Israel’ (cf. Is 4:2-4; Ezek 9; etc.). St Paul says that they prove the
irrevocable nature of God’s election (cf. Rom 1l:1-5) and are the
first-fruits of the restoration which will come about at the End (cf.
Rom 11:25-32).

The hundred and forty-four thousand are included in the second vision; they would be part of the great multitude “from all tribes and people and tongues”. Thus, the vision in vv. 9-17 takes in the entire Church without any distinctions, whereas the vision in vv. 1-8 can refer only to a part of the Church–those Jews who, by becoming Christians, made up the original nucleus of the Church. The Church admits these on the same basis as all those who become Christians later without having had to pass through any stage of Jewish observance.

According to the custom of the time, when something bore the mark of a seal or brand that meant that it belonged to the seal’s owner. This passage is saying that the one hundred and forty four thousand belong to God and therefore will be protected by him as his property. This fulfills what Ezekiel prophesied about the inhabitants of Jerusalem (cf. Ezek 9:1-7): some would be sealed on the forehead with a tax (the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet) and would therefore escape the punishment to be inflicted on all the rest: this shows the special way God makes provision for those who are his not only because he created them but also by a new title.

The Fathers of the Church saw this mark as symbolizing the character Baptism impresses on the souls of the faithful to show that they are destined for eternal life. Thus, the persons preserved from harm are the Jews who were converts to Christianity: their Baptism marked them out from those Jews who rejected Christ and were not baptized.

The list of tribes is somewhat different from the usual list which
keeps the order of Genesis 29. The name of Judah is put first because the Messiah came from that tribe, as St John recently mentioned (cf. 5:5); and there is no mention of the tribe of Dan, presumably because it fell into idolatry (cf. Judg 17-18) and eventually disappeared. To make up the tally of twelve the tribe of Joseph is mentioned twice–as that of Joseph and as that of Manasseh, his first-born.

The number of those sealed (12 x 12 x 1000) symbolizes completeness, totality–in this instance, a huge multitude, depicted as the new Israel. Included in this number are the descendants of Jacob who receive Baptism, irrespective of when they do. Obviously this number is not meant to be taken literally, as if only one hundred and forty-four thousand people will attain salvation. In this scene all those of Gentile background who become Christians over the course of history are
explicitly not included. They will appear in the vision which follows.

 

[Fidelis]

Also, commenting on Revelation 14:1-3, 4b-5

1-3. It is highly significant that the Lamb stands on Mount Zion, in
Jerusalem, which was where God dwelt among men according to the Old Testament (cf. Ps 74:1; 132:14; etc.) and where, according to certain Jewish traditions, the Messiah would appear, to join all his followers. The assembly, then, is an idealization of the Church, protected by Christ and gathered about him. It includes all those who belong to Christ and to the Father and who therefore bear his mark, which shows them to be children of God. They are so many that it is impossible to count them, but their number is complete: they are given a symbolic number which is 12 (the tribes of Israel) by 12 (the Apostles) by 1000 (a number indicating a huge scale): cf. Rev 7:3ff.

The one hundred and forty-four thousand are not yet in heaven (for the loud noise comes from heaven); they are on earth, but they have been rescued from the power of the beast (cf. 13:13-14). The verse from heaven symbolizes the strength and power of God; and the heavenly voice speaks with the gentleness of liturgical music. It is a new song, for it now sings of the salvation wrought by Christ (cf. 15:34) in the same style as the Old Testament chants the praises of God (cf., e.g., Ps 33:3; 40:2; 96:1). Only those who belong to Christ can join in this song and be associated with the heavenly liturgy: “It is especially in the sacred liturgy that our union with the heavenly Church is best realized; in the liturgy, through the sacramental signs, the power of the Holy Spirit acts
on us, and with community rejoicing we celebrate together the praise of the divine majesty; when all those of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (cf. Rev 5:9) who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ and gathered together into one Church glorify, in one common song of praise, the one and triune God” (“Lumen Gentium”, 50).

4-5. The text refers to those who are properly disposed to take part in the marriage supper of the Lamb (cf. 19:9; 21:2) because they have not been stained by idolatry but have kept themselves undefiled for him. St Paul compares every Christian to a chaste virgin (cf. 2 Cor 11:2) and describes the Church as the spouse of Christ (cf. Eph 5:21-32). The author of the Apocalypse is referring to all the members of the Church insofar as they are holy, that is, called to holiness; but the symbolism he uses also draws attention to the fact that virginity and celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven is a special expression and clear sign of the Church as Bride of Christ. Referring to the chastity practiced by religious, the Second Vatican Council teaches that in this way they “recall that wonderful marriage made by God, which will be fully manifested in the future age, and in which the Church has Christ for her only spouse” (“Perfectae Caritatis”, 12).

The one hundred and forty-four thousand are also those who have
identified themselves fully with Christ, dead and risen, by denying
themselves and devoting all their energies to apostolate (cf. Mt 10:
38). They also stand for those whom Christ, by the shedding of his
blood, has made his own and his Father’s property (like Israel, the
first fruits of Yahweh: cf. Jer 2:3), that is, those who constitute a
holy people like that remnant of Israel described in Zephaniah 3:13: “they shall do no wrong and utter no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue.” The prophet’s words refer to people who have not invoked false gods, but the Apocalypse applies them to those who are fully committed to Christ.

 

[puzzleannie]

if I decipher the answer to the “virgin” question from your exhaustive and authoratitive explanation, “virgin” does not mean in the literal sense, but the chaste, pure soul who has not given into idolatry and therefore is worthy join the Church as the spotless bride of Christ, in other words, the elect.

 

[Kaily]

Thank you everyone, this helps,

I guess what the person was really wondering is where the Male virgins came from(I understand that this is all symbolic) its just she never heard of the male virgins. In my bible it doesn’t even refer to male virgins, it just says, the 144,000, etc…

Thank you, I really don’t need to know what this chapter means, i do understand that it is all symbolic,etc… and that 144,000 means a totality.

 

[Fidelis]

puzzleannie:

if I decipher the answer to the “virgin” question from your exhaustive and authoratitive explanation, “virgin” does not mean in the literal sense, but the chaste, pure soul who has not given into idolatry and therefore is worthy join the Church as the spotless bride of Christ, in other words, the elect.

I probably could have limited it to the single point that the commentary makes regarding the issue in question:

The author of the Apocalypse is referring to all the members of the Church insofar as they are holy, that is, called to holiness; but the symbolism he uses also draws attention to the fact that virginity and celibacy for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven is a special expression and clear sign of the Church as Bride of Christ. Referring to the chastity practiced by religious, the Second Vatican Council teaches that in this way they “recall that wonderful marriage made by God, which will be fully manifested in the future age, and in which the Church has Christ for her only spouse” (“Perfectae Caritatis”, 12).

I hate to take anything out of context, though!

 

[Pug]

Kaily:

its just she never heard of the male virgins. In my bible it doesn’t even refer to male virgins, it just says, the 144,000, etc…

Did you try looking in 14:4? it says in the nab:

Revelation 14:4 These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They have been ransomed as the firstfruits of the human race for God and the Lamb.

This is why the 144,000 in 14:1 are considered by some as male virgins. Check out Fidelis’ long pair of posts below (the second one has the verse info).

 

[catholic2]

Your question on the 144,000 male virgins is answered in Rev. 14:4 as noted in a post above.

Some posts above have indicated that the 12,000 from each tribe is a metaphoric number. I don’t think so. The 12 tribes are categorically listed as in Rev.7:5-8, and after that are all the rest, described as a huge number from every nation race, tribe and language (Rev. 7:9) Why must we spiritualize this passage? God has a special role for the Jewish people in the end times as pointed out in scripture, and the 144,000 sealed is part of it.

 

[bones_IV]

BibleReader:

Hi, Bones.

You may be being a little too restrictive in your interp, here.

The New Testament typically incorporates the Gentiles into the meaning of the Twelve Tribes, at least somewhat. Witness last Sunday’s gospel…

**Gospel
**Mt 4:12.23 or 4:12-17

When Jesus heard that John had been arrested,
he withdrew to Galilee.
He left Nazareth and went to live in Capernaum by the sea,
in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali,
that what had been said through Isaiah the prophet
might be fulfilled:
**Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali,
**the way to the sea, beyond the Jordan,
**Galilee of the Gentiles,
**the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light,
on those dwelling in a land overshadowed by death
light has arisen.

Because the Bible does this persistently, when I deduced the meaning of “12” in the Bible, I gave it the denominationally-ambiguous meaning, “All of the tribes of God’s people.”

“10” means “very many.”

So, I would interpret 144,000 to mean 10 x 10 x 10 x 12 x 12 or “very very very many of all of the tribes of all of the tribes of God’s people” – in other words, a vast, vast assembly.

Actually,
I got this from the Navarre study bible.

Padre Pio “The Rosary is the weapon.”

 

[oriel36]

catholic2:

Your question on the 144,000 male virgins is answered in Rev. 14:4 as noted in a post above.

Some posts above have indicated that the 12,000 from each tribe is a metaphoric number. I don’t think so. The 12 tribes are categorically listed as in Rev.7:5-8, and after that are all the rest, described as a huge number from every nation race, tribe and language (Rev. 7:9) Why must we spiritualize this passage? God has a special role for the Jewish people in the end times as pointed out in scripture, and the 144,000 sealed is part of it.

Despite the large volume of literature surrounding the use of numbers in the Book Of Revelation, the basic structure is actually quite concise and neat .

It just takes a while to become familiar with the ebb and flow of the author’s use of numbers but ultimately it is the most beautiful work of art that has remained dormant for two millenia.

If the author uses 144 000 people and 144 cubits simultaneously it is a clear signal to the reader to pick up on how to treat zeros.

A really clever one in a similar vein is 1260 days rendered as 1 year,2 year and a half year which of course is 1 yr 2 yr 6 month or 126.

Perhaps someday,a person will be courteous enough to ask what the geometric template of the Book Of Revelation is and how the great Johanine Word takes precedence as the Book Of Revelation fades. It is a true and living miracle for the gentle of heart,for the crude and the brute of reasoning it will always be a remote and cold work.

 

[catholic2]

Would you explain that geometric template in Revelation you’re talking about? Perhaps it might be good to start another thread in this forum…

oriel36:

Despite the large volume of literature surrounding the use of numbers in the Book Of Revelation, the basic structure is actually quite concise and neat .

It just takes a while to become familiar with the ebb and flow of the author’s use of numbers but ultimately it is the most beautiful work of art that has remained dormant for two millenia.

If the author uses 144 000 people and 144 cubits simultaneously it is a clear signal to the reader to pick up on how to treat zeros.

A really clever one in a similar vein is 1260 days rendered as 1 year,2 year and a half year which of course is 1 yr 2 yr 6 month or 126.

Perhaps someday,a person will be courteous enough to ask what the geometric template of the Book Of Revelation is and how the great Johanine Word takes precedence as the Book Of Revelation fades. It is a true and living miracle for the gentle of heart,for the crude and the brute of reasoning it will always be a remote and cold work.

 

[oriel36]

Would you explain that geometric template in Revelation you’re talking about? Perhaps it might be good to start another thread in this forum…

With all due respect I am content to keep the information nestled in this thread.

The Book Of Revelation’s mathematical facet is a highly developed and intricate form of the same structure found in the Genesis chronology from Adam to the Flood.Among the many things these magnificent mathematical facets serve is to put a ‘symbolic’ brake on the narrative, in other words the over-emphasis on what is literal and what is not can destroy the Divine works we inherited from remote antiquity and the flesh and blood messages they contain in terms of Christ and Christianity.

The Johannine author of Revelation demands much of his readers,not so much that they are required to ‘solve’ or hack out a meaning to the numbers or images but that the impulse to impose a meaning cannot overshadow the intents and purposes the Work is meant to serve - the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I assure anyone who makes an effort to understand the fairly straightforward structure of Genesis will prepare themselves for the more intricate and rewarding work of Revelation.It will not make anyone a better or worse Christian for only Love can do that however an emerging appreceation of this mathematically dormant Judaeo-Christian heritage puts a person in a position to judge other works where figures are involved,even contemporary topical ones.

For example,I used the template of 1260 days/42 months in Revelation to calculate the days in a month in Genesis.The Genesis author is very specific as to the day of the flood which follows chronologically from the birth of Adam through the 10 patriarchs.

Genesis 5 Genealogy.

Age of father at birth of son.

Adam 130 years
Seth 105
Enosh 90
Kenan 70
Mahalel 65
Jared 162
Enoch 65
Methusaleh 187
Lamech 182
Noah 600 (age at time of flood Gen 7)

Total years from creation to flood = 1656 years

1656 AT 52.17 per year = 86,393.52 weeks

Gen 7 " in the second month,on the 17th day of the month" where Noah s 600 yrs old at time of flood is anywhere within the 45th day 5.36/7 day week =6.48 weeks).

86,393.52 + 6.48 = 86,400 weeks from creation to destruction. Gen 7 on the precise day named".

If these things do not appeal to you do not be puzzled or feel that you are required to understand them to be a better Christian .On the other hand many influences have emerged to upset Christians by pretending to supply answers which can substitute for faith or the really stupid notion that a secret body of 'knowledge ’ exists known only to a few people. Many contemporary scientists and pseudochristians practice this nonsense on people who cannot defend themselves and have even fooled good Christians in influencial positions to accept doctrines which normally they would reject as exotic nonsense.

I assure you that I love my Catholic community and detest the pretension which has reduced the numbers going to mass and receiving the sacrements because absolutely nobody questions the integrity of the foundations for some of the principles which uphold untenable concepts and particularly in regard to natural phenomena.It is impossible to appreceate the Book Of Revelation in an enviroment where basics things such as geometry and astronomy have been perverted for the most spurious purposes for it really does require ‘wisdom’ to appreceate Revelation but only in Christ.

Again,perhaps a person will someday be courteous enough to ask me what the format for Revelation is.

 

[catholic2]

oriel36:

With all due respect I am content to keep the information nestled in this thread.

The Book Of Revelation’s mathematical facet is a highly developed and intricate form of the same structure found in the Genesis chronology from Adam to the Flood.Among the many things these magnificent mathematical facets serve is to put a ‘symbolic’ brake on the narrative, in other words the over-emphasis on what is literal and what is not can destroy the Divine works we inherited from remote antiquity and the flesh and blood messages they contain in terms of Christ and Christianity.

The Johannine author of Revelation demands much of his readers,not so much that they are required to ‘solve’ or hack out a meaning to the numbers or images but that the impulse to impose a meaning cannot overshadow the intents and purposes the Work is meant to serve - the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I assure anyone who makes an effort to understand the fairly straightforward structure of Genesis will prepare themselves for the more intricate and rewarding work of Revelation.It will not make anyone a better or worse Christian for only Love can do that however an emerging appreceation of this mathematically dormant Judaeo-Christian heritage puts a person in a position to judge other works where figures are involved,even contemporary topical ones.

For example,I used the template of 1260 days/42 months in Revelation to calculate the days in a month in Genesis.The Genesis author is very specific as to the day of the flood which follows chronologically from the birth of Adam through the 10 patriarchs.

Genesis 5 Genealogy.

Age of father at birth of son.

Adam 130 years
Seth 105
Enosh 90
Kenan 70
Mahalel 65
Jared 162
Enoch 65
Methusaleh 187
Lamech 182
Noah 600 (age at time of flood Gen 7)

Total years from creation to flood = 1656 years

1656 AT 52.17 per year = 86,393.52 weeks

Gen 7 " in the second month,on the 17th day of the month" where Noah s 600 yrs old at time of flood is anywhere within the 45th day 5.36/7 day week =6.48 weeks).

86,393.52 + 6.48 = 86,400 weeks from creation to destruction. Gen 7 on the precise day named".

If these things do not appeal to you do not be puzzled or feel that you are required to understand them to be a better Christian .On the other hand many influences have emerged to upset Christians by pretending to supply answers which can substitute for faith or the really stupid notion that a secret body of 'knowledge ’ exists known only to a few people. Many contemporary scientists and pseudochristians practice this nonsense on people who cannot defend themselves and have even fooled good Christians in influencial positions to accept doctrines which normally they would reject as exotic nonsense.

I assure you that I love my Catholic community and detest the pretension which has reduced the numbers going to mass and receiving the sacrements because absolutely nobody questions the integrity of the foundations for some of the principles which uphold untenable concepts and particularly in regard to natural phenomena.It is impossible to appreceate the Book Of Revelation in an enviroment where basics things such as geometry and astronomy have been perverted for the most spurious purposes for it really does require ‘wisdom’ to appreceate Revelation but only in Christ.

Again,perhaps a person will someday be courteous enough to ask me what the format for Revelation is.

You have very eloquently said nothing in response to my inquiry.

 

[oriel36]

catholic2:

You have very eloquently said nothing in response to my inquiry.

There is no pressure on anyone to accept or deny the mathematical structures embedded in scripture such as the Genesis chronology from Adam to Noah or the Book Of Revelation however it would be nice to occasionally come across an individual who gets some excitement from these things.

Insofar as contemporary descriptions of Revelation in terms of gematria is a false avenue ( i.e. 666 = Nero or fill-in-the-blank ) it remains a popular choice among those who are comfortable with an inferior approach to the Johannine text.Christ or Christianity has not and never will be served by such an approach.

The Book Of Revelation eventually reveals what it initially conceals from its readers in such a way that it is not necessary for everyone to witness its intricacies -mathematical,Spiritual or otherwise however it is a living gift of Christ through the Johannine community for those who do make an effort.

The fondness and appreceation of the Genesis chronology from Adam to Noah is an excellent way to become familiar with the mathematical facet of the Book Of Revelation.It is far removed from brute reasoning which exists today among those who think they have the right to trash the Genesis text whether it is called creationsim/evolutionism or science/religion.

The Book Of Revelation is part of my faith and it never overshadows Christ and Christianity,in fact it does the opposite.In this respect I assure you that gematria and variants of that useless avenue never had a place in Christianity or the Book Of Revelation.Given that gematria is accepted as orthodoxy it is no wonder that there is a tendency to give spurious codes more attension than they are worth.

Your call.

 

[catholic2]

oriel36:

…
The Book Of Revelation is part of my faith and it never overshadows Christ and Christianity,in fact it does the opposite.In this respect I assure you that gematria and variants of that useless avenue never had a place in Christianity or the Book Of Revelation.Given that gematria is accepted as orthodoxy it is no wonder that there is a tendency to give spurious codes more attension than they are worth.

Your call.

I leave the Kabbalists to their murky world of which the gematria is part of.

While you mention Genesis’ numerologies is related to that of Revelation, I propose that the book of Daniel is a more direct matrix, which I will demonstrate if you request.