3-hour mass in Latin Rite?

[Reyno]

A priest celebrates mass for 3 hours. He also administer confession while the special ministers for the eucharist distribute the sacred Host. I am very confused and I want your help.

 

[Kielbasi]

Sorry, I’ve never heard of this protocol. I know that sometimes different priests can hear confessions while another priest is saying mass, but the celebrant priest ?

Totally unfamiliar with this, but what’s your question?

A 3 hour mass isn’t unheard of , but is still very long and quite unusual except in cases of special masses like ordinations.

 

[NetNuncio]

May I ask for more clarity? The priest is hearing confessions DURING Mass whilet Extaordinary Ministers of Holy Communion distribute communion?

While I think it may be a nice gesture to offer confession to those who may not had the chance to have it before Mass, it certainly could make for an incredibly long Mass and there are no norms that would sanction the practice.

If confessions are taking place as a part of Mass, that would be an abuse…and a rather unheard of one, at that.

Adam

 

[michaeldaniels]

I thought liturgical norms dictate that confessions MUST end prior to Mass beginning…not MAY end prior to the beginning of Mass…this is the first time I have ever heard of this…I need to research this more to find out…but I think I am right…are you sure it wasn’t a Communion service instead of a Mass that you are talking about? Godbless M.D.

 

[Reyno]

Thank you for your replies. I’m excited because this is my first time to post a thread.
For you to understand more about the 3-hour mass, please allow me to state some of its background:

I became a member of a Catholic organization called Flock of the Divine Mercy based in Sibaguan, Roxas City, Philippines. I participated in the retreat last June 8-9, 2002. There are 1879 participants during our batch. Today, it reaches to an average of 2500. Old members return just to serve the new participants. And also, thousand are returning (from neighboring towns) for the culminating mass. There are 10000 (a conservative estimate) that attends the culminating mass. Lately, the participant I invited advised me to read REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM (on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist). After reading the Instruction, I was deeply confused. This prompted me to write a letter to the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Capiz. There has been no reply to my 2 letters. I wrote a third letter and was directly addressed to the spiritual director (the one that celebrates the 3-hour mass) of the Flock of the Divine Mercy. He refused to read the letter because according to him he knew it already for he has been a priest for 44 years. My confusion grew all the more.

I recorded the events during the culminating mass of September 2007. Here are my observations:

1.Opening prayer up to first reading ------------------------- 31 minutes
2.First reading up to end of Gospel proclamation ------ 14 minutes
3.A layman talked (upon his invitation after gospel)-----9 minutes
4.Homily proper up to I Believe…------------------------------1hr 9min
His discussion regarding the gospel reached only for two minutes.
The other topics he discussed in this portion are as follow:
(Length of each topic not recorded)
a)He said that he will not anymore allow old members to confess under him but advised that they confess at their respective pastors.
b)He explained the steps to confession.
c)He invites participants to listen to the Divine Mercy radio program.
d)Offered for the last time to hear confession for new participants who refused to confess on his invitation the previous time. The confession took place during communion.
e)He explained consecration (using the Holy Water dispenser as ‘host’ while explaining).
f)He explained the love of family and care for old parents.
g)He again explained consecration.
5.I Believe up to Holy, holy, holy… ---------------------- 14 minutes
After I Believe he again inserted about consecration, and invited children to do the action song as the choir sang.
6.Consecration up to the singing of AMEN -----------12 minutes
7.AMEN up to Peace be with you… -------------------- 8 minutes
Before Our Father he invited children to be in front for the singing of the Our Father. He encouraged everybody to hold hands during the singing of Pater Noster. During the singing, he let the hands of the children he is holding, touch the consecrated host. And I presume this is the very reason why he encourages all of us to hold hands during the singing. After the singing he requested someone to distribute candies to children.
8.Peace be with you up to communion---------------- 7 minutes
9.Communion up to the final blessing ----------------- 27 minutes
27 minutes is very reasonable considering the volume of communicants. This is also the time where he administers confession.

Summary: Opening song up to final blessing ---------- 193 minutes.

The retreat is every 2nd Saturday of the month. He(the spiritual director) alone administers confession to all the new participants (2500). How he did it? He invites the participants to do the examination of conscience and be sorry for it. The participants then cued as he individually blesses them as they pass. The penance is the same for everybody. i.e. I Believe…, Our Father…, Hail Mary…, Glory be…, and Fatima prayer. This sequence is repeated 3 times and the Act of Contrition is said after it. This is more of general absolution and most of the members depend on this type of confession every 2nd Saturday of the month.

His (Spiritual Director) refusal to read my letter prompted me and my wife to stop going to the retreat. We decided to find the answer to our confusions elsewhere.

Is the mass valid? Cardinal Arinze, in his ‘Introducing Redemptionis Sacramentum’, opined that some priests tend to make the mass invalid.

Since I know that the practices at the culminating mass is contrary to Redemptionis Sacramentum, will I commit sin if I continue to support such activity?

Will Vatican allow this practice to continue?

Do I have the responsibility to inform the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments?

We are deeply confused. Please help us.

Thank you.

in Christ,
Reyno

 

[japhy]

I became a member of a Catholic organization called Flock of the Divine Mercy based in Sibaguan, Roxas City, Philippines.

Do you know if this organization exists anywhere else? I did a Google search for “Flock of the Divine Mercy” and only got the group located in Roxas City.

Lately, the participant I invited advised me to read REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM (on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist). After reading the Instruction, I was deeply confused. This prompted me to write a letter to the Archbishop of the Archdiocese of Capiz. There has been no reply to my 2 letters. I wrote a third letter and was directly addressed to the spiritual director (the one that celebrates the 3-hour mass) of the Flock of the Divine Mercy. He refused to read the letter because according to him he knew it already for he has been a priest for 44 years.

I assume you were confused after reading Redemptionis Sacramentum because a lot of the things you were seeing at your Masses the document called “abuses”. That’s a very good reason to be concerned. It is a shame your Archbishop has not done anything, and very sad (and very alarming!) that your Spiritual Director has refused to acknowledge it either.

1.Opening prayer up to first reading ------------------------- 31 minutes

What in the world took so long?! Was it a long and rambling prayer? Or is there just a lot of extra stuff added into the Mass?

2.First reading up to end of Gospel proclamation ------ 14 minutes
3.A layman talked (upon his invitation after gospel)-----9 minutes

Laymen are not permitted to give homilies or “talks” that resemble homilies.
4.Homily proper up to I Believe…------------------------------1hr 9min
His discussion regarding the gospel reached only for two minutes.
The other topics he discussed in this portion are as follow:

This is very unfortunate.

After I Believe he again inserted about consecration, and invited children to do the action song as the choir sang.
6.Consecration up to the singing of AMEN -----------12 minutes

What do you mean by “he … invited children to do the action song”? What were the children doing? I certainly hope the children weren’t the ones doing the consecration.

He encouraged everybody to hold hands during the singing of Pater Noster. During the singing, he let the hands of the children he is holding, touch the consecrated host. And I presume this is the very reason why he encourages all of us to hold hands during the singing. After the singing he requested someone to distribute candies to children.

This is really upsetting. No one is supposed to be around the altar at that time except the priest, concelebrating priests, and deacons. The priest’s actions are very very suspect.

He(the spiritual director) alone administers confession to all the new participants (2500). He invites the participants to do the examination of conscience and be sorry for it.

“Group confession” is only to be used in rare and extreme circumstances.

Since I know that the practices at the culminating mass is contrary to Redemptionis Sacramentum, will I commit sin if I continue to support such activity?

If you can find a Mass to attend somewhere else, PLEASE go somewhere else for Mass.

Do I have the responsibility to inform the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments?

THAT is a VERY good idea.

 

[benedictgal]

By all means write to Cardinal Arinze. Your whole post was a gigantic red flag. In addition to the abuses listed in Redemptionis Sacramentum, there is another document that you can cite. It is the 2000 Circular Letter Regarding the Sacrament of Confession. Here is a link to the letter: adoremus.org/6-72K.Penance.html

In 2001, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments also addressed this similar issue:

The principal norms governing the time for the celebration of the sacrament of Penance are to be found in the Instruction Eucharisticum mysterium (25 May 1967), which states: The faithful are to be constantly encouraged to accustom themselves to going to confession outside the celebration of Mass, and especially at the prescribed times. In this way, the sacrament of Penance will be administered calmly and with genuine profit, and will not interfere with active participation inthe Mass (no. 35). The same is reiterated in the Praenotanda of the Ordo Paenitentiae (no. 13), which states that: the reconciliation of penitents can be celebrated at any time and day.

Nevertheless this ought to be understood as a counsel directed to the pastoral care of the faithful, who ought to be encouraged and helped to seek health of soul in the sacrament of Penance, and have recourse to it, as far as possible outside the place and time of the celebration of Mass. On the other hand, this does not in any way prohibit priests, except the one who is celebrating Mass, from hearing confessions of the faithful who so desire, including during the celebration of Mass.

Consequently, it is clearly lawful, even during the celebration of Mass,to hear confessions when one foresees that the faithful are going to askfor this ministry. In the case of concelebrations, it is earnestly to be desired that some priests would abstain from concelebrating so as to be available to attend to the faithful who wish to receive the sacrament of Penance.It should be borne in mind, nevertheless, that it is not permitted to unite the sacrament of Penance with the Mass, making of them both a single liturgical celebration.

This may sound confusing, but, it does not contradict RS at all because the celebrant of the Mass is not supposed to be hearing confessions during the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[Reyno]

Please provide me the address of Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. I have decided to inform the Congregation about the 3-hour Mass celebrated every month by the Spiritual Director of Flock of the Divine Mercy. Our latest dialogue with the leaders of the flock indicated that future dialogues to solve the abuses in holding the mass is futile. One of the leaders(very close to the spiritual director) even said that Redemptionis Sacramentum lacks some provisions for it did not specify its aplicability for Masses attended by 10-15 thousand faithfuls. I have prepared a letter for the Congregation but I don’t know the address. Please help me.

 

[benedictgal]

Please provide me the address of Congregation of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. I have decided to inform the Congregation about the 3-hour Mass celebrated every month by the Spiritual Director of Flock of the Divine Mercy. Our latest dialogue with the leaders of the flock indicated that future dialogues to solve the abuses in holding the mass is futile. One of the leaders(very close to the spiritual director) even said that Redemptionis Sacramentum lacks some provisions for it did not specify its aplicability for Masses attended by 10-15 thousand faithfuls. I have prepared a letter for the Congregation but I don’t know the address. Please help me.

Here is the address:

Palazzo delle Congregazioni
Piazza Pio XII, 10
00120 CITTÀ DEL VATICANO

Address the cardinal as:

His Eminence, Francis Cardinal Arinze
Prefect, Congregation for Divine Woship and the Disicpline of the Sacraments

I would send it next day air, which is $24, as it is a guarantee that it will get there.

I hope this helps you. God bless.

 

[Joysong]

I became a member of a Catholic organization called Flock of the Divine Mercy based in Sibaguan, Roxas City, Philippines. I participated in the retreat last June 8-9, 2002 There are 1879 participants during our batch. Today, it reaches to an average of 2500. Old members return just to serve the new participants. And also, thousand are returning (from neighboring towns) for the culminating mass. There are 10000 (a conservative estimate) that attends the culminating mass.

Reyno, I am seeing this as a special mass (culminating mass?) that was celebrated only for its members during a retreat over 5 years ago. Is it true that this is NOT the regularly scheduled Sunday liturgy for Catholics?

 

[benedictgal]

Reyno, I am seeing this as a special mass (culminating mass?) that was celebrated only for its members during a retreat over 5 years ago. Is it true that this is NOT the regularly scheduled Sunday liturgy for Catholics?

Even though this is celebrated as the final Mass for the retreat, it still violates a host of items from Redemptionis Sacramentum. It is still wrong and should be addressed.

 

[Joysong]

I realize that, but if he is now trying to correct them after such a long period of time lapse, it would explain some of the difficulty.

 

[benedictgal]

I realize that, but if he is now trying to correct them after such a long period of time lapse, it would explain some of the difficulty.

Joysong, if this is an on-going retreat (much like the Cursillos and the ACTS that happen several times a year) and this type of liturgy persists, then he is within his rights to address it. Remember, the Mass is not some free-for-all do-as-you-please service. Furthermore, there are serious issues concerning the conjoining of sacraments. Although confessions can occur during the Mass, the celebrant cannot be the one hearing them.

 

[Joysong]

if this is an on-going retreat

Which is why I asked the question. He did not indicate that he returned to this retreat in subsequent years, or that if he did, the same celebrant is presiding. The retreatants MAY have obtained another priest, and the issue MAY have already been addressed by one of the other retreatants submitting a complaint.

 

[benedictgal]

Which is why I asked the question. He did not indicate that he returned in subsequent years, or that if it did, the same celebrant is presiding. The retreatants MAY have obtained another priest, and the issue MAY have already been addressed by one of the other retreatants submitting a complaint.

Joysong, as I suspected, you haven’t carefully read the OP’s explanation. This scenario repeated itself in September 2007.

I recorded the events during the culminating mass of September 2007.

Therefore, he is well within his rights to express some serious concerns about these prohibited practices.

Furthermore, as I also suspected, these retreats seem to be similar in nature to the Cursillos and the ACTS ones, which are held many times during the year. They aren’t a one-shot deal. They are rather frequent.

Therefore, he is within his time frame, especially, since what he witnessed five years ago is still happening during these retreats.

 

[Joysong]

Sorry, I did miss that. It was a rather long post to get lost in.

thanks.