5th, 6th and 7th stage prayer from Teresa of Avila

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franklinstower

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I am a Catholic who is deeply taken with contemplative prayer. I have been deeply devoted to prayer for over twenty years. I have a very specific question about the contemplative life according to Teresa and in light of some of John of the Cross’s material, and mysticism in general.

I have a spiritual advisor here who is a monk from the Trappist order and who is also a contemplative. He has said for years that the higher you go up the spiritual accent the LESS you feel the presence of God in your senses. He does not mean you are less connected but emphasizes faith in place of tangible experience. He says this in light of John of the Cross’s night of the sense and night of the spirit. This has caused much confusion over the years because of a number of factors.

The first is my reading of Teresa of Avila (my favorite saint) in that she seems to experience a greater sensory connection to God over time that results in something quite extraordinary and permanent in the prayer of union.

The second source of confusion is an article I read from another monk from the same Trappist monastery making a distinction between two different kinds of people, mystics and non mystics. He spoke about both camps having the same chances of becoming a saint, all other factors being equal, but that the non mystics will come in and develop a greater faith over time and also a greater inner strength over time and that the mystics will have more mystical and sensory experiences with God and have a greater discernment in the end but that both will come to the same love.

This seems to suggest that for some people tangible sensory experiences with God will be a part of the path to God and a part of how God is experienced even in union even after the senses have been purified.

The third is from my own experience in that I do see a progression over time of an increased awareness of Gods presence in various ways and I can feel it, not emotionally but very tangibly. I have been through extended periods of time experiencing dryness and the night also.

I would like to hear authoritative commentary on this topic.
 
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I’m not fully sure of your question either; perhaps you can restate it. For me I’ve found Thomas Merton’s What is Contemplation? an excellent guide. I also practice the form of meditation laid out so clearly in The Cloud of Unknowing. By contrast, I find Teresa’s latter mansions and John of the Cross’s elaborate descriptions of stages of meditation complicated and thus difficult. But that’s just me–all our prayer lives are different, depending on how we are called by God.

Fr. DuBois book Fire Within is also an excellent source for understanding Teresa and John.
 
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franklinstower said:
The first is my reading of Teresa of Avila (my favorite saint) in that she seems to experience a greater sensory connection to God over time that results in something quite extraordinary and permanent in the prayer of union.
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As I read your description of “permanent in the Prayer of Union,” I hope you do not understand that specific prayer experience as becoming permanent. The Prayer of Union is a spiritual encounter with God, initiated by Him, wherein you are completely engulfed spiritually in His presence. It is very short, probably not more than a Hail Mary, and all the faculties are absorbed, unlike the Prayer of Quiet, where they are able to think. The experience leaves a lot of benefits that she described in the 5th mansion.
 
The second source of confusion is an article I read from another monk from the same Trappist monastery making a distinction between two different kinds of people, mystics and non mystics. He spoke about both camps having the same chances of becoming a saint, all other factors being equal, but that the non mystics will come in and develop a greater faith over time and also a greater inner strength over time and that the mystics will have more mystical and sensory experiences with God and have a greater discernment in the end but that both will come to the same love.
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In Way of Perfection (Chapter 17, article 3), St. Teresa described a sister who is only capable of vocal prayer, and is not contemplative. She remarked that this sister’s vocal prayer is very pleasing to God, and capable of making her a saint.
 
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franklinstower said:
He has said for years that the higher you go up the spiritual accent the LESS you feel the presence of God in your senses. He does not mean you are less connected but emphasizes faith in place of tangible experience.
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I agree. When one has experienced God’s presence for many months/years and it is no longer present, it makes the soul somewhat fearful that he has backslidden. His faith is much stronger however, and when one examines his conscience, he finds that sins are almost negligible in frequency. Yes, venial sins of surprise, and one’s actual consent to minor venial sins will be quickly noticeable and lamented. The heart is very remorseful even over its imperfections, which may subside gradually over time.
 
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The ascent is “on” the mountain toward union with God. This union is very different from knowledge about or awareness of or understanding of an object perceived by an observer of the object outside of, separate from, himself. The stages of union (union, conforming union, transforming union) are advancing stages of exactly that: union with the all-holy God. I think that to seek gauges or indicators or data to detect degree of “union” is self-defeating, precisely because it is self-affirming, self-referential, continuing to preserve and establish that very Self that we want to become overcome, as Lord of our Life. The beatitude we seek awaits the defeat of Self - that Self which welcomes no contender for the Throne in our hearts.

We need to seek to die to self (more than we can know), in order to live to Him. He comes more readily where there is poverty, vacancy, hunger, emptiness. I find the Beatitudes in Mt. 5, as developed, unfolded, in the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, Mt 5-7, very accurate “indicators” - except when they become understood by the natural mind. They refer in truth to supernatural virtues, aspects of the Holy Spirit, Whose Virtue is of course infinite.

I write this in hopes of it being helpful! May the Lord guide us all. I find pondering the mysteries of Scripture beautifully more helpful than theologies or spiritualities per se, although they do serve a purpose on the journey.
 
The question is “Can you feel Gods presence in the highest stages of prayer, 6 and 7th stage prayer, or is there some kind of purification of the senses where you no longer “feel” it and are only aware of it in a way that is not felt?”
 
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franklinstower said:
“Can you feel Gods presence in the highest stages of prayer, 6 and 7th stage prayer, or is there some kind of purification of the senses where you no longer “feel” it and are only aware of it in a way that is not felt?”
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I think this type of question can only be answered by someone who has reached those stages. I would say , and I could be wrong, very few have. What does the great saint say herself about this?

from
http://www.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2011/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20110202.htmlPrayer is life and develops gradually, in pace with the growth of Christian life: it begins with vocal prayer, passes through interiorization by means of meditation and recollection, until it attains the union of love with Christ and with the Holy Trinity. Obviously, in the development of prayer climbing to the highest steps does not mean abandoning the previous type of prayer. Rather, it is a gradual deepening of the relationship with God that envelops the whole of life.
 
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Dear fide,

Thanks for your reply, for I believe you a touching on a very important “temptation” in our time. The beautiful writings of St. Theresa and our other Carmelite Saints notably St. John of the Cross, St. Edith Stein, St. Therese of Lisieux, and others have a consistency in that they are founded upon and focused on the Supernatural Gift of Faith, working within them with the Supernatural gifts of Hope and above all Divine Charity.

The world today (Clergy, Religious, Laity) are tempted sorely by the love of self which is so evident in the lessening of Love for God. St. Augustine put it so well in writing his classic book “The City of God” when contrasting the two cities: The City of God and the city of man. Those who love the world to the contempt of God are the “City of man”. Those who love God to the contempt of self are the “City of God”. The Saints are in agreement that the most difficult battle in the spiritual life is the battle against self love.

I agree with you that in the Scripture we find, as John of the Cross said, " God spoke One Word and His name is Jesus." The Beatitudes in Matthew and in the Our Father also given in the Chapters furthering the teaching of the Beatitudes give us God’s Wisdom to fight the battles we face, and the encouragement to keep asking for grace to receive the full fruit of total union with God, continual seeking to find Him fully and constantly knocking for the door to open. (Cf Mt. 7: 7-11)

We need to learn to Listen to all Jesus said and did as Mary our Mother did, pondering all in our hearts. There is a brief book on Scripture which can help if I might suggest it: Title is: Encountering Christ in Holy Scripture… See HERE. Hope this is helpful to all reading this thread.
 
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No offense, OP, this is an interesting topic, but it seems like you’ve started two threads on essentially the same topic, as your other thread on St. John of the Cross seems to be asking the same questions. The forum rules say we aren’t supposed to start multiple threads on the same topic.

I see in your other thread you posted a response you got from a contemplative organization that said basically that each person’s spiritual journey with God was highly personal and unique. I tend to agree. I don’t think there’s any such thing as "authoritative commentary’ because it’s entirely possible that people will have all different experiences with this. What God gives person A to help them grow spiritually might be different from what he gives person B.

Spiritual advisors can be helpful and knowledgeable, but their ideas of how a spiritual journey progresses might not apply to all people.
 
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I find this subject worthy of discussion. no matter what the subtitles 🙂
 
I did receive a really good response from a woman who is part of a large contemplative prayer group. Its pretty close to what some people here have said.

She basically said paraphrased that it is different for different people. I have heard this from many others but the weight of my spiritual directors words as a priest and a monk were heavy on me in this case.
 
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