5th Marian Dogma and Potential Convert

[freerf]

As a potential convert, like many others I am quite confused about the necessity of many beliefs surrounding the virgin Mary. Particularily the necessity of a 5th Marian Dogma.

I hear Catholic radio and have read on Catholic websites that the passage of this Dogma will in some way create a peace, stop fighting, improve the Church in some way or some such. . .and I think, What?!

My problem is that within the 5th Marian Dogma movement, I cannot reasonably tell the difference between Marian worship and reverance. Why would a humble Mary require this sort of recognition? How is this going to give glory to God? Glory to Mary? Yes.

Regardless of your stance, you should be aware that passage of this dogma will inspire even greater disdain for the Catholic religion within mainstream Protestantism and will be considered further proof of the Catholic church Mary-worshiping.

Now please, don’t get all emotional and defensive. I like the Catholic church. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But even from this perspective, I am having a hard time understanding it rationally.

 

[coolduude]

Well you shouldn’t really worry about the Fifth Dogma for right now, as it hasn’t been defined formally by the Pope. I’m pretty sure that right now, it’s considered an article of faith that doesn’t have to be believed, but I could be wrong.

I am plenty aware that if the Fifth Dogma is defined it will create much more hate for Catholics and only inflame the hate that’s already there. Oh well, I suppose. We’ve been dealing with hate from Day 1

Just my thoughts.

 

[KephasAugustine]

As a potential convert, like many others I am quite confused about the necessity of many beliefs surrounding the virgin Mary. Particularily the necessity of a 5th Marian Dogma.

I hear Catholic radio and have read on Catholic websites that the passage of this Dogma will in some way create a peace, stop fighting, improve the Church in some way or some such. . .and I think, What?!

My problem is that within the 5th Marian Dogma movement, I cannot reasonably tell the difference between Marian worship and reverance. Why would a humble Mary require this sort of recognition? How is this going to give glory to God? Glory to Mary? Yes.

Regardless of your stance, you should be aware that passage of this dogma will inspire even greater disdain for the Catholic religion within mainstream Protestantism and will be considered further proof of the Catholic church Mary-worshiping.

Now please, don’t get all emotional and defensive. I like the Catholic church. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But even from this perspective, I am having a hard time understanding it rationally.

Hi

First, know that everything Catholics believe about Mary is inseparably interwoven with what we believe about Christ. It is Jesus and His glory that gives Mary her importance. Mary merited nothing on her own, but was sanctified and glorified by her Son, Jesus Christ, to Whom alone belongs all glory and adoration.

In Scripture, we see Mary begin her role as Spiritual Mother of the Church when she says “yes” to becoming the mother of Christ. As Christians, St Paul writes, we believe that Christ is the Head, while the Church is His Mystical Body. If Mary is the mother of the Head, must not she also be the mother of the body? We see also that Christ desires Mary to be mother to others when He gives her to John at the foot of the Cross (if it were simply a practical arrangement, don’t you think He would have taken care of that before He was broken, bloody, and dying? It must be more significant if the words were uttered during the culmination of God’s Plan).

“The humble Mary,” as you put it, requires this honor because the Lord desires to bestow it upon her. In the Scripture, we hear that the humble will be glorified in heaven–who was more humble than Mary? By that same token, who should be more glorified by Christ in heaven than Mary, who was most humble?

As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity. Though, to be sure, we welcome everyone with open arms!

I hope this helps a little.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Hi

First, know that everything Catholics believe about Mary is inseparably interwoven with what we believe about Christ. It is Jesus and His glory that gives Mary her importance. Mary merited nothing on her own, but was sanctified and glorified by her Son, Jesus Christ, to Whom alone belongs all glory and adoration.

In Scripture, we see Mary begin her role as Spiritual Mother of the Church when she says “yes” to becoming the mother of Christ. As Christians, St Paul writes, we believe that Christ is the Head, while the Church is His Mystical Body. If Mary is the mother of the Head, must not she also be the mother of the body? We see also that Christ desires Mary to be mother to others when He gives her to John at the foot of the Cross (if it were simply a practical arrangement, don’t you think He would have taken care of that before He was broken, bloody, and dying? It must be more significant if the words were uttered during the culmination of God’s Plan).

“The humble Mary,” as you put it, requires this honor because the Lord desires to bestow it upon her. In the Scripture, we hear that the humble will be glorified in heaven–who was more humble than Mary? By that same token, who should be more glorified by Christ in heaven than Mary, who was most humble?

As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity. Though, to be sure, we welcome everyone with open arms!

I hope this helps a little.

Thank you. Fantastic post.

 

[UponTheAltar]

frtommylane.com/fifthmariandogma.htm

This explains it well.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

The major hang up is the CO…which means “with”, not “equal”.

They need to find a better word, IMO. No point in causing confusion over a word, really (well, part of a word).

I love Our Lady very, very, very much-just to be clear.

 

[Catholic1954]

Mary does not require the passage of the 5th Marian Dogma. It is the Church that defines and passes dogmas. You are right, it is hard sometimes to tell the difference between worship and honor, respect and veneration. Mary is everyone’s heavenly mother, she deserves the same respect and honor that you would give to any mother here on this earth and more; she also holds the unique place of the Queen of Heaven and Jesus’s mother. The Church will pass the 5th dogma because it is the truth. Protestant (or Catholic) opinion about it, will not be considered. I hope you keep at your inquiries and study, the role of Mary in the Church can be a big problem to new converts, but once overcome, she will point the way to her son, Jesus.

 

[roveau]

I would’t worry if I were you, it’s never going to happen. It has been up for a long time by various of the Popes but none have pushed it through to dogma.

I love Mary too but in my opinion the word ‘Co-Redemptrix’ is unnecessary and will be a stumbling block for many.

 

[Carlan]

Posted by K.A.

First, know that everything Catholics believe about Mary is inseparably interwoven with what we believe about Christ. It is Jesus and His glory that gives Mary her importance. Mary merited nothing on her own, but was sanctified and glorified by her Son, Jesus Christ, to Whom alone belongs all glory and adoration.

In Scripture, we see Mary begin her role as Spiritual Mother of the Church when she says “yes” to becoming the mother of Christ. As Christians, St Paul writes, we believe that Christ is the Head, while the Church is His Mystical Body. If Mary is the mother of the Head, must not she also be the mother of the body? We see also that Christ desires Mary to be mother to others when He gives her to John at the foot of the Cross (if it were simply a practical arrangement, don’t you think He would have taken care of that before He was broken, bloody, and dying? It must be more significant if the words were uttered during the culmination of God’s Plan).

“The humble Mary,” as you put it, requires this honor because the Lord desires to bestow it upon her. In the Scripture, we hear that the humble will be glorified in heaven–who was more humble than Mary? By that same token, who should be more glorified by Christ in heaven than Mary, who was most humble?

As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity. Though, to be sure, we welcome everyone with open arms!

I hope this helps a little.

Excellent Post,thank you.

Given time and prayer,Free, Mother Mary will be come a wonderful and consoling part of your Catholic spirituality. She will draw you even closer to her Divine Son.Peace, Carlan

 

[Corki]

The major hang up is the CO…which means “with”, not “equal”.

They need to find a better word, IMO. No point in causing confusion over a word, really (well, part of a word).

I love Our Lady very, very, very much-just to be clear.

What is the word in Latin?

 

[coolduude]

What is the word in Latin?

Coredemtrix? Is that what you’re looking for?

 

[VetA]

As a potential convert, like many others I am quite confused about the necessity of many beliefs surrounding the virgin Mary. Particularily the necessity of a 5th Marian Dogma.

I hear Catholic radio and have read on Catholic websites that the passage of this Dogma will in some way create a peace, stop fighting, improve the Church in some way or some such. . .and I think, What?!

My problem is that within the 5th Marian Dogma movement, I cannot reasonably tell the difference between Marian worship and reverance. Why would a humble Mary require this sort of recognition? How is this going to give glory to God? Glory to Mary? Yes.

Regardless of your stance, you should be aware that passage of this dogma will inspire even greater disdain for the Catholic religion within mainstream Protestantism and will be considered further proof of the Catholic church Mary-worshiping.

Now please, don’t get all emotional and defensive. I like the Catholic church. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. But even from this perspective, I am having a hard time understanding it rationally.

excuse my ignorance but what is it?

 

[coolduude]

excuse my ignorance but what is it?

The Fifth Dogma would contain the titles of Coredemtrix, Mediatrix of Graces, and Advocate and apply them to the Blessed Virgin.

Coredemtrix means that Mary co-operated with Jesus to redeem the human race. The Coredemtrix title would not place Mary on the level of Jesus, just to be clear.

Mediatrix of Graces means that all the graces God bestows on us go from God, through Mary, and to us. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that’s what Mediatrix is.

Advocate is quite simple- it’s Mary’s position as an advocate for us. I don’t know much about this one, but that should be right. If I’m wrong, someone please correct me

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

What is the word in Latin?

Cum.

Which (in the Italian language language, too: con) means with, not equal to.

 

[freerf]

Hi

First, know that everything Catholics believe about Mary is inseparably interwoven with what we believe about Christ. It is Jesus and His glory that gives Mary her importance. Mary merited nothing on her own, but was sanctified and glorified by her Son, Jesus Christ, to Whom alone belongs all glory and adoration.

In Scripture, we see Mary begin her role as Spiritual Mother of the Church when she says “yes” to becoming the mother of Christ. As Christians, St Paul writes, we believe that Christ is the Head, while the Church is His Mystical Body. If Mary is the mother of the Head, must not she also be the mother of the body? We see also that Christ desires Mary to be mother to others when He gives her to John at the foot of the Cross (if it were simply a practical arrangement, don’t you think He would have taken care of that before He was broken, bloody, and dying? It must be more significant if the words were uttered during the culmination of God’s Plan).

“The humble Mary,” as you put it, requires this honor because the Lord desires to bestow it upon her. In the Scripture, we hear that the humble will be glorified in heaven–who was more humble than Mary? By that same token, who should be more glorified by Christ in heaven than Mary, who was most humble?

As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity. Though, to be sure, we welcome everyone with open arms!

I hope this helps a little.

This is a good responce. I can see much of it is based on scripture. However, your last two paragraphs lose me.

You state:
“The humble Mary,” as you put it, requires this honor because the Lord desires to bestow it upon her. In the Scripture, we hear that the humble will be glorified in heaven–who was more humble than Mary? By that same token, who should be more glorified by Christ in heaven than Mary, who was most humble?

yes, the humble will be glorified in heaven. in heaven. not on earth. in heaven. I still don’t see any reason for it, on earth by the church. I don’t see a strong reason to believe God Himself wants the Chruch to pass this dogma. If He wanted it that much, wouldn’t it be fairly clear to us all? Why the mystery? If the Lord desires to bestow it upon her, He will. would He not? And He is: in heaven.

Also, you state:
“As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity.”

Well, you should care. the rest of the world often finds error in the Church. And it is to the Church’s benefit that they do. take the current issue with the pedofiles. Thank God the “rest of the world” exposed this stuff. God can use the rest of the world to teach the church just as he uses you and I. See what happened to the jews, eh?

I suppose I’ll just have to pray on it. That God’s will be done.

thanks.

 

[VetA]

The Fifth Dogma would contain the titles of Coredemtrix, Mediatrix of Graces, and Advocate and apply them to the Blessed Virgin.

Coredemtrix means that Mary co-operated with Jesus to redeem the human race. The Coredemtrix title would not place Mary on the level of Jesus, just to be clear.

Mediatrix of Graces means that all the graces God bestows on us go from God, through Mary, and to us. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that’s what Mediatrix is.

Advocate is quite simple- it’s Mary’s position as an advocate for us. I don’t know much about this one, but that should be right. If I’m wrong, someone please correct me

well that sounds good to me thats the way i already understand Mary, so if that becomes dogma then i will have no problem

 

[VetA]

Also, you state:
“As Catholics, we don’t really care what the rest of the world thinks about us. We seek the Truth, not popularity.”

Well, you should care. the rest of the world often finds error in the Church. And it is to the Church’s benefit that they do. take the current issue with the pedofiles. Thank God the “rest of the world” exposed this stuff. God can use the rest of the world to teach the church just as he uses you and I. See what happened to the jews, eh?

i dont think he meant that we dont care, just that its not that simple, if something is true and infallibly so it would do the church no benefit to hide that dogma from the world

 

[freerf]

i dont think he meant that we dont care, just that its not that simple, if something is true and infallibly so it would do the church no benefit to hide that dogma from the world

Truth should always be shared, popular or not. I agree.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

i dont think he meant that we dont care, just that its not that simple, if something is true and infallibly so it would do the church no benefit to hide that dogma from the world

Well said.

 

[Joe_5859]

I would’t worry if I were you, it’s never going to happen. It has been up for a long time by various of the Popes but none have pushed it through to dogma.

I love Mary too but in my opinion the word ‘Co-Redemptrix’ is unnecessary and will be a stumbling block for many.

Never say never. Look how long it took to declare as dogma the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

All Marian dogma is important not because of what it tells us about Mary but because of what it tells us about Jesus. This proposed fifth Marian dogma is no different.

As far as this proposed fifth Marian dogma goes, it is not pushing anything new doctrinally. Basically, it’s about Mary’s maternal relationship with us, the Church, the Body of Christ. The other dogmas (Theotokos, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, and Assumption) don’t address that relationship, but the Church obviously teaches that she does have a relationship with us. Again, this has more to do with who Christ is and who the Church is rather than who Mary is.

They haven’t defined it yet, so I think it’s fine to be a bit uncomfortable with the proposed articulation. But really, it’s just about the fact that Mary is the first and most perfect cooperator with Jesus’ saving mission, God chooses to come to us through Mary still today (as he did originally in the Incarnation), and Mary wants to help us as any mother would (and she is in the best place to do so because of her relationship with God). That’s really all this proposed dogma is about.

I understand why people think this could be harmful to ecumenism, but, speaking for myself, the reason that some people think such a declaration of dogma could “create a peace, stop fighting, improve the Church in some way or some such” is that it could provide Catholics with a beautiful and comprehensive articulation of our relationship with Mary that we can point to and say “See, we do not worship Mary. This is how we define our relationship with her and this is why.” Obviously, this will not magically remove the accusations of Mary worship, but those people who are so entrenched in their misconceptions already believe we worship Mary. A dogmatic definition would be beneficial for those men and women of good will who are honest and open to what the Church has to say about her teachings.

Catholics are free to disagree with the prudence and/or articulation of this proposed dogma, but the doctrinal teaching of Mary’s maternal relationship with us is part of Church teaching.