607 bc ?

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adversary

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hi i am new to this forum and have been studying with the jehovah’s
witnesses for about 8 months. i am considering becoming an unbaptized
publisher. i was associated with the “churches of christ” for the last
10 years. i was raised as a nominal catholic but have had no contact with the catholic church for 20 years but i am a seeker of the truth. i have been studying the book of daniel with the jehovah’s witnesses and i am having difficulties with the 607bc dating of the
desolation of jerusalem. from my previous studying of daniel i
accepted that 587 bc as the date for the desolation of jerusalem was
supported by historical and archeological evidence. it seems to me
that the 607 bce dating is the very basic element in the doctrinal
structure of the jehovah’s witnesses and must have adequate evidence
to support it and to refute the evidence of historians and scholars of
christendom. does anyone know the catholic position or datings with reguard to daniel’s prophecies? and help would be appreciated…thanks
 
Peace be with you!

I’d stay away from that Jehovah’s Witness stuff if I were you. I have no idea why they look at a date like 607 because they didn’t exist until the 20th century. Pretty late for the “true” faith wouldnt you say? They change the wording of the Bible to support their doctrines because the Bible in its original form does not support them.
I can’t answer your question on Daniel’s prophecies, unfortunately. But I’m sure others on here know more about that than I do.

In Christ,
Rand
 
I was a Jehovah’s Witness for several years. I knew nothing about God & when they offered to “study the Bible” with me I said yes. I was baptized & was very active in the door to door witnessing work. I thought I was serving God but actually I was serving the Watchtower Society.
I am begging you to PLEASE look long at hard at the organization before you go any further. Don’t just listen to what they are telling you… MOST witnesses are as clueless as I was about the history of the Watchtower. There are so many excellent books written by former elders, overseers & people who served at Bethel. The witnesses will tell you they are apostate - they aren’t. They are people like me who’s only desire is to serve God & when they realized they had been fed nothing but lies by the Watchtower, they want to help others… others like you who are getting sucked right in. Go to a Christian bookstore or google JW’s online -
You will soon see that NOTHING the witnesses have ever prophecized has come true. NOTHING. Read what Charles T. Russell really believed - it’s the wackiest stuff… all about mystical stuff & pyramids - and people are so guliable, they followed him. He claimed to be the “faithful slave” spoken of in the Bible when actually he was just a nut.
You said you attended the Church of Chirst. They are very sincere folks who love Jesus. Are YOU now willing to believe that Jesus was just an angel? Are you willing to believe that only 144,000 JW’s are going to heaven? Are you willing to say that all other religions other than JW’s are the work of Satan?

The Watchtower will tell you to “know the truth & the truth will set you free.” THEY DON’T HAVE THE TRUTH. You will never be free if you join them. You will be in bondage. I speak from experience. Before you go any further… please investigate what you’re getting yourself into. I’m going to pray for you.
 
Adversary,

Hello and welcome to the forums! (Quite a thing to say to an adversary, isn’t it!)

I have never been a Jehovah’s Witness, but two JW’s held Bible studies in my house for three months when I left the Episcopal Church. They are very nice people, but as Carol Marie said, their beliefs are just plain goofy. And they have indeed modified the Bible to fit their beliefs. For example, they changed the words of Jesus at the Last Supper from “this is My Body” to “this means My Body.”

I have never heard anybody dispute the date of 587 BC for the destruction of the First Temple in Jerusalem until now. I don’t think the Catholic Church has made any official pronouncements on the subject and the Catholic faithful are free to believe any date they want. I would not trust a JW’s date that differed from 587 BC, though, unless I saw a lot of very good evidence backing it up.
  • Liberian
 
Hello!

Glad to have you with us! 🙂

I’m not sure why a date from the OT would trip you up and cause you to falter in your Catholic faith. Can you explain this further, please?

I do know that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has re-written Holy Scripture to make it say what they wanted it to say. (And they started with the already bastardized King James Version, so it was a poor source of scripture to begin with)

They’ve also proclaimed the end of the world I don’t know how many times since the founding and they keep getting it wrong. Maybe they could take a look at the Bible, hm? The part that says that “no man knoweth the hour?”

One of the members of this board, Jeff Schwelm, has a great web site for Jehovah’s Witnesses - www.catholicxjw.com

The things that this church does to keep its members are not Christian. Please reconsider this move. If you can pull yourself away from JW’s for a couple of weeks, and pray to Jesus, He will help you discern what is true.

All the angels and saints rejoice at the homecoming of the one lamb who was lost. What can we do to help you?

Elizabeth
 
Hi Adversary:

My name is Jeff Schwehm and I have a website that you might find helpful.

www.catholicxjw.com

Specifically this article might be of some help to you:

catholicxjw.com/1914DB.html

The JWs are in serious trouble with their 607 BC date. You are correct in that no one accepts that date for the destruction of Jerusalem because the historical evidence is overwhelming.

Also, as you can see, if the 607 BC date is wrong then the JWs’ date for 1914 is also wrong and their claims of authority fall like a house of cards.

If you want to contact me directly, just email me at jschwehm@catholicxjw.com

I was a JW for most of my life and even served at the World Headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York for a time.

Jeff Schwehm
President
Fellowship of Catholic Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses
 
Now why owuld you want to do a thing like that? The Watchtower doesnt let you celebrate Holidays, join a sports team, be patriotic, talk to non-JWs, spend half of your time trying to convert people, and more boring junk. They also are very dangerous. They wouldn’t actually do harm to you as in brainwashing (although sometimes they do) but you cant contact or talk to police or firemen. You have to contact the elders of the kingdom Halls who will somehow come and deal with the issue. And according to JWs, there is no Hell! You just cease to exist. Why bother with them, then? Sheer stupidity! God’s name isn’t Jehovah its YHWH, or pronounced Yahweh. Notice how your heart seems to leap while looking at YHWH? go to www.rickross.com to find out info on the Watchtower slaves, or “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. Please do not fall out of God’s Holy Saving Grace. Jesus no mere Archangel. He is God. The Holy Spirit is no mere force, like 'electricicty" as they say. IT is God. And God loves you. Please do not make a decision you will regret.
 
Rand Al'Thor:
Peace be with you!

I’d stay away from that Jehovah’s Witness stuff if I were you. I have no idea why they look at a date like 607 because they didn’t exist until the 20th century. Pretty late for the “true” faith wouldnt you say? They change the wording of the Bible to support their doctrines because the Bible in its original form does not support them.
I can’t answer your question on Daniel’s prophecies, unfortunately. But I’m sure others on here know more about that than I do.

In Christ,
Rand
Click to expand...
That is right!
 
Adversary - If I can just add something. You’ll find a wealth of information to show that they don’t have support on the 607 date. Others here have pointed that out.

But I suggest that you go to a more basic assumption - should they be trying to calculate a date from the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st place? You’ve probably already been through the winding reasoning they use to do it - but the question I’m suggesting is; What basis do they have to start in the 1st place, no matter what date it is?

They will refer you to the “tree” dream in Daniel ch. 4. But that dream had to do with Nebuchadnezzar, as it clearly states. They are looking for a “second fulfillmant”. But why? Why start off down that road in the first place?

Somebody in the past was going into the Bible and fishing around for dates. They’ve come up with a lot of them over the years, each one having their own “explanation”. Most of them have been discarded.
 
People who are not Catholic tend to think of our Tradition and the Magisterium as too confining and over-bearing – but no one in my parish or my household is liable to report me to the pastor or the congregation if I slip up.

In our faith our spiritual life is between us and Christ – the confessor acting in persona Christi. I know that many priests find being able to grant absolution the greatest gift they have – along with confecting the Savior of the World in the Eucharist.

For me-- as a convert to Catholicism – I could never leave the Real Presence. What utter love and humility our Savior has to come to us sinners and help to nourish us with the very Bread of Life?

Suddenly, being told that I can’t go to a funeral of friend or read what I want (usually just Catholic stuff because the protestants while sincere are missing the whole truth and it seems anemic to me) would seem so lame. How is it that I can’t go to a family member’s funeral becuase it is at a Christian church? Ludicrous! Our “rules” are so freeing compared to what one can’t do as a JW.

Forget the date and get the Christ - He is the Way, the Truth and and the Life – no one comes unto to the Father…
 
Please listen to all these people, especially Jeff and Carol Marie, as they have been there, done that and come out the other side. They would not have been faithful members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses had they not too believed it was all the truth wholeheartedly. But is it not telling that they eventually began to find holes in the teachings and methods? Holes that they could not simply ignore as Satan’s interference, lack of faith, or have conveniently explained away by an elder. As they began to look elsewhere, Jesus drew them to himself and into the arms of his Church where they found peace in genuine knowledge of his love.

A friend of mine in college (an ex-mormon) once said “Beware religons who claim they have all the answers”. This is a striking truth. Jesus himself told us that we would only come into full knowledge of all things when we die and are risen in new life with him. The Catholic Church itself celebrates the Sacred Mysteries, clearly acknowledging that a lot about God, the infinite creator, is simply beyond the understanding of mere mortals. We should accept this, knowing and trusting in Jesus that he chose to reveal himself, and the Father through him, to us, mere children.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses on the other hand, have made it their mission to reduce everything the Catholic Church calls a mystery to a black & white fact, or simply ignore it. For example, the Trinity is usually one of the first Catholic teachings to be dismantled, since how can three be one? Yet we cannot explain it, because it is beyond our experience and understanding. But does that make it invalid? Think about it. If God is powerful enough to have created the universe, surely he must have features and powers and a nature that is different, far greater than we can possibly imagine, and unlimited. So we, who are not the Almighty Creator, cannot define him in our very limited terms.

Please email Jeff with any questions you may have, that is all I ask. I too will be praying for you.

Catholic Diva
 
You don’t need anything complicated to refute JW thinking. Just take a look at their New World Translation of the Bible. Any internet search will show you the multitude of errors in the translation from a linguistic viewpoint. No reputable Greek scholar who is not affiliated with the JWs or a few other groups accepts the NWT.

Then you must ask yourself: If they have the truth, why do they need to mistranslate the Bible to find it?

There is a reason why even the Protestants of the Reformation translated John 1:1 “…and the Word was God.” That’s the way it is in Greek. The same could be said of many passages in the NWT.

The JWs will undoubtedly produce defenses of their translation, but these defenses are generally so convoluted and complicated that they fall apart. For example, their explanation of John 20:28 (“Thomas answered and said TO HIM, ‘My Lord and my God.’”) is so far-fetched that it defies reason.

New Testament Greek does not need linguistic gymnastics to be understood; twisting the languages of the Scriptures is a poor way to search for truth.

The Catholic Church has been the guardian and true champion of the Bible throughout history. The long and rich history of biblical scholarship in the Church guarantees that you are not getting a version of Scriptures that is the work of untrained ‘translators’ or of ‘prophets’ proven false.

The infinite love of God shines forth in the Catholic Church and the Bible it gave to the world. That is where truth is. That is where you will find God’s word.
 
As a matter of fact, John 1:1 is a great place to start to see the problems with the NWT.

The actual Greek says this:

εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος

Let’s look at it word by word:

εν____αρχη_____ην____ο__λογος__και___ο___λογος
In___beginning__was__the__word__and__the___word

ην___προς___τον___θεον___και___θεος____ην___ο___λογος
was___with__the___God___and___God___was__the__word

Notice two things.

First, the NWT renders the last god with a lowercase ‘g’ to say that it does not refer to Jehovah. So they read the end of the phrase like this: “the word was a god.” However, if you look at the actual greek, the word “God” is capitalized. It begins with the capital θ. ) I have made this word blue).

Second, notice that it doesn’t say “the word was a God.” In fact, it doesn’t even say, “the word was God.” It really says “God was the word.” This leaves no room for doubt whatsoever as to what it means. It doesn’t just say the word (Christ) was god, it literally says God (Jehovah) WAS the word (Christ). This is more direct than it could possibly be!

You may ask why in english we translate it the other way around. Well, its because of the word ‘the’ being before the second time the word ‘God’ shows up. It’s a matter of Greek grammar. In Greek, the subject of the sentence is determined by the ending of the word. When two words had the same ending and the subject couldn’t be determined based on the endings, the Greeks would add the word ‘the’ onto the subject to signify it. It doesn’t mean literally ‘the God,’ as though there were other gods.

(You may also wonder why the word ‘the’ is spelled in a different way the second time around. This is because it is in a different case, called the accusative case. It basically means that God is the object of the phrase ‘was with.’)
 
Lazerlike42:

Dead right and Amen.

I came to biblical Greek through Classical (Attic and Ionic) Greek. My first impression of it was how simple it was compared to Homer and Demosthenes. Of course, that is the point; if you want people to read the Good News, you need to keep it simple.

I generally avoid confronting JWs on theology, as they invariably pull out the NWT and the teachings of their elders. Besides, I am no theologian or exegete. But I can confront them with the linguistic mess that is the NWT. If the translation is wrong, why bother arguing theology?

Additional problem areas for JWs are the use (inconsistent) of ‘Jehovah’ in their New Testament where it does not exist, and the ‘torture stake’ instead of ‘cross’ as the instrument of Jesus’ death. The problem with the latter is that we know how the Romans crucified criminals. It was not with a ‘stake.’ It was with a two-piece cross, an upright (stipes) and a crosspiece (patibulum).

Sorry about going on so much. There are much better linguists than I. My point is: Look at the language of the Bible and look at the NWT. If there are so many basic errors of language, can they have the truth?

Now if I could just get a handle on Hebrew…
 
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