7 Letters Of Ignatius

[Heartfelt]

I am currently researching the Eucharist, to the best of my tiny ability, I am not a scholar, just interested. My husband tends to lean to the Protestant, and I tend to lean to the Catholic. We are both in the middle, attending a Methodist Church. I came across this, and in New Advent, shows a controversy between the authenticity of these letters. Since St. Ignatius is the pivotal pen shall we say for the Catholic doctrine, I would like to hear from both Catholics and Protestants how they feel about these letters, and how in your own research you came to your conclusions on whether or not St. Ignatius and his opinons on the Eucharist should be believed.

 

[6glargento]

the truth is, although there were some supossed forgies of some of his other letters, the 7 which catholics quote from are almost universally accepted by christian scholars both protestant and catholic alike.

 

[Heartfelt]

Thank you for posting. Do you have a reference to that? Do you know of any literature that says that, so I can show my husband?

 

[6glargento]

to tell you the truth, i got this off of wikipedia, not exactly scholarly but better than nothing

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I am currently researching the Eucharist, to the best of my tiny ability, I am not a scholar, just interested. My husband tends to lean to the Protestant, and I tend to lean to the Catholic. We are both in the middle, attending a Methodist Church. I came across this, and in New Advent, shows a controversy between the authenticity of these letters. Since St. Ignatius is the pivotal pen shall we say for the Catholic doctrine, I would like to hear from both Catholics and Protestants how they feel about these letters, and how in your own research you came to your conclusions on whether or not St. Ignatius and his opinons on the Eucharist should be believed.

Off the top of my head I believe that the 7 letters are not in dispute, but there are other writings attributed to Ignatius that are not written by him.

 

[Church_Militant]

Spurious Epistles (Ignatius of Antioch)

That should help.

 

[Contarini]

I am currently researching the Eucharist, to the best of my tiny ability, I am not a scholar, just interested. My husband tends to lean to the Protestant, and I tend to lean to the Catholic. We are both in the middle, attending a Methodist Church. I came across this, and in New Advent, shows a controversy between the authenticity of these letters. Since St. Ignatius is the pivotal pen shall we say for the Catholic doctrine, I would like to hear from both Catholics and Protestants how they feel about these letters, and how in your own research you came to your conclusions on whether or not St. Ignatius and his opinons on the Eucharist should be believed.

Remember that the Catholic Encyclopedia is nearly 100 years old. There is very little disagreement on the subject among scholars today–there are still a few doubters here and there, but it’s basically accepted that the seven letters are authentic in their shorter versions.

Edwin

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

With the issue of the spurious Ignatian epistles dealt with, what are we left with from a man who was at most, thrird generation Christian–and taught by St John himself–a man who knew he was going to a horrible death (eaten alive by lions) and was going to confirm that sentence by mouthing off to the Emperor himself.

1. The Eucharist is really Christ’s Body & Blood
2. The Mass is a sacrifice
3. The Church is heirarchcal and **visibly ONE **–under bishops united in the faith.
4. That the Church of Rome (under a bishop!) took precedence in faith, charity, and holiness
5. And, matter of factly, like it was nothing unusual or special (meaning Ignatius was NOT introducing the title), the Church is called “Catholic”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Since St. Ignatius is the pivotal pen shall we say for the Catholic doctrine, I would like to hear from both Catholics and Protestants how they feel about these letters, and how in your own research you came to your conclusions on whether or not St. Ignatius and his opinons on the Eucharist should be believed.

St. Ignatius is not “pivotal” for Catholic doctrine, since our doctrine is found in Sacred Scripture. The Church Fathers simply offer their interpretation for us and have written it down.

There are probably some forgeries, but even forgeries are useful. It shows what the Christian church of the time was teaching. We can usually tell the authenticity of the works by whether or not they are accepted by other Church Fathers. Most of Ignatius’ works are.

John 6 shows the Catholic position quite plainly. It’s not just the Catholic position, it’s the position of all of Apostolic Christianity. The Churches of the East and of the Orient all believe in the catholic interpretation of Jn 6. These Churches are the Eastern Rite Catholic Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Church and the Assyrian Church of the East. Catholic believers and Orthodox believers alone number about the same as Moslems with Protestants falling behind in numbers behind the Orthodox (not that numbers really matter, but just pointing out that the majority of Christendom believes in the real presence in the catholic sense).

Catholic doctrine on the Eucharist states that when the priest says the words of consecration acting in persona Christi (in the person of Christ), the host (“bread”) and chalice (“wine”) become that once and for all Sacrifice by Him made present. When we present ourselves before the Eucharist we are uniting ourselves to the once and for all Sacrifice on Calvary. Jesus said “If you eat this bread and drink this cup you will have eternal life in you”.

If you’re into the Church Fathers I recommend wholeheartedly W.A. Jurgens The Faith of the Early Fathers vol. 1, 2 & 3.

Also visit www.scripturecatholic.com.

 

[Contarini]

With the issue of the spurious Ignatian epistles dealt with, what are we left with from a man who was at most, thrird generation Christian–and taught by St John himself–a man who knew he was going to a horrible death (eaten alive by lions) and was going to confirm that sentence by mouthing off to the Emperor himself.

1. The Eucharist is really Christ’s Body & Blood

True

1. The Mass is a sacrifice

In a very general sense, yes.

1. The Church is heirarchcal and **visibly ONE **–under bishops united in the faith.

The local church is hierarchical. I see no evidence of a hierarchy beyond the local church in Ignatius. He seems to treat all local churches as essentially equal.

1. That the Church of Rome (under a bishop!)

On the contrary, one of the strongest arguments against hte existence of the monarchical episcopacy in Rome at this time is the fact that Ignatius never mentions a bishop of Rome. Given how important the episcopacy was to him, that omission is surely important.

took precedence in faith, charity, and holiness

One common interpretation of “presides over love” is that the Roman church was engaged in a generous program of charitable giving to other churches. Of course it might mean more than that, but it’s a very insecure base to hang the Catholic doctrine of Roman primacy on.

Edwin

 

[Heartfelt]

Thank you all for your posts. Semper Fi, just to clear up what I meant…I do not think that St. Ignatius’ wirtings are “pivotal” to the Catholic Church, and in my writing that was not clear. What I meant was, in showing my husband the issue of the Real Presence, those writings in my mind are a pivotal hinge for his belief system, or rather…his belief against the Real Presence. Thank you all for taking the time. If you only knew how much this issue weighs on me. I feel that if I can convince my husband of this one thing, than he would have to admit the Catholic church is the way to go, since no other church believes in the Real Presence, or … as much as I know. I just keep feeling called to the communion, and it hurts me to go to churches where it is once a month or only at one service. I have many books on the subject, but many are still opinionated and so he reads them skeptically…especially the Hahn books. So…sigh. Keep me in your prayers please.

 

[Contarini]

Thank you all for your posts. Semper Fi, just to clear up what I meant…I do not think that St. Ignatius’ wirtings are “pivotal” to the Catholic Church, and in my writing that was not clear. What I meant was, in showing my husband the issue of the Real Presence, those writings in my mind are a pivotal hinge for his belief system, or rather…his belief against the Real Presence. Thank you all for taking the time. If you only knew how much this issue weighs on me. I feel that if I can convince my husband of this one thing, than he would have to admit the Catholic church is the way to go, since no other church believes in the Real Presence

Actually, the Orthodox believe essentially the same way as the Catholics, and many Anglicans are pretty close as well. Lutherans have a very strong belief in the Real Presence though they define it differently from Catholicism. Other Protestant churches–including Methodism–have a heritage of belief in a more spiritualized version of the Real Presence (actually the version taught in a rather vague way in the Anglican 39 Articles, though in practice we have moved in a more Catholic direction), but “on the ground” a symbolic view seems to prevail.

Edwin

 

[NotWorthy]

St. Ignatius is not “pivotal” for Catholic doctrine, since our doctrine is found in Sacred Scripture. The Church Fathers simply offer their interpretation for us and have written it down.

You underestimate the importance of Ignatius.

He provides the link between the Church of the New Testament to the Early Church. Without this link, it becomes that much more difficult (especially to the skeptic mind) to prove that the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

I think the OP is treading down the correct path if she wants to nudge her husband gently in the right direction.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

You underestimate the importance of Ignatius.

He provides the link between the Church of the New Testament to the Early Church. Without this link, it becomes that much more difficult (especially to the skeptic mind) to prove that the Catholic Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.

I think the OP is treading down the correct path if she wants to nudge her husband gently in the right direction.

Yes, I understand that. Ignatius is not necessary for our doctrine though. But without the writings of the Early Church Fathers the Church would still exist because Jesus Christ promised that the “Gates of Death would not prevail against it.”

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Actually, the Orthodox believe essentially the same way as the Catholics, and many Anglicans are pretty close as well.

I think this is pretty revisionist. Anglicans are free to believe or to disbelieve the real presence. Sure, Henry VIII was given the title “Defender of the Faith” for his treatise on the Eucharist. But this is not the modern Anglican Communion.

And I haven’t met many Anglicans except for on the Internet who choose to believe in the real presence. Belief in the real presence is not what makes one or breaks one as an Anglican. It is for a Catholic or an Orthodox believer.

 

[Atreyu]

Thank you all for your posts. Semper Fi, just to clear up what I meant…I do not think that St. Ignatius’ wirtings are “pivotal” to the Catholic Church, and in my writing that was not clear. What I meant was, in showing my husband the issue of the Real Presence, those writings in my mind are a pivotal hinge for his belief system, or rather…his belief against the Real Presence. Thank you all for taking the time. If you only knew how much this issue weighs on me. I feel that if I can convince my husband of this one thing, than he would have to admit the Catholic church is the way to go, since no other church believes in the Real Presence, or … as much as I know. I just keep feeling called to the communion, and it hurts me to go to churches where it is once a month or only at one service. I have many books on the subject, but many are still opinionated and so he reads them skeptically…especially the Hahn books. So…sigh. Keep me in your prayers please.

Are you familiar with Hahn’s lecture, The Fourth Cup?

 

[NotWorthy]

Are you familiar with Hahn’s lecture, The Fourth Cup?

Best… lecture…ever…period.

 

[Atreyu]

Best… lecture…ever…period.

It’s fantastic…