A bit confused about RCIA

[iloveangels]

Okay, fair enough.

That’s good.

Are you assuming that every RCIA is like yours? I attended a very good RCIA, and I think the one we have here is also quite good. The one I attended was very focused on Church history. Ours here is very focused on the Sacraments. The focus depends on the Pastor and what he wants to have taught during the Period of Catechesis.

I actually helped with 2 RCIA series, in 2 different parishes over the years. (After my own RCIA experience in the 1st parish of those 2). One of them was far better than the other, but they were both pretty pathetic, honestly.

We spent very little time on history in either one. Most of it was very touchy feely–aka nonjudgmental group discussion while waiting for annulments to show up in the mail.

A lot of time was spent talking about “building community,” but after the last meeting basically everybody was unceremoniously dumped into the general church population-sink or swim style. About half the class sunk. It’s been my general (and very well-founded) conclusion that the more people talk about community, the less of it there is.

If I hadn’t helped with the second series, I never would have had"dubious experience" of watching an LTP film on the glories of unltra-liberal masses. That was an interesting experience–one I could have done without–but interesting nonetheless. They showed several of these types of films in that class.

 

[Phemie]

Did I say exactly that or did you infer it?

I’m asking if that’s what you think because your pointed question to jmcrea about her teaching credentials could lead one to infer that.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m asking if that’s what you think because your pointed question to jmcrea about her teaching credentials could lead one to infer that.

And it’s an irrelevant question, because RCIA is not Theology 101. The reason it’s run by lay people instead of priests is precisely because the point of the exercise is to become integrated members of the parish community, to come to believe what the people of that community believe, and share in their celebrations, especially Sunday Mass.

Obviously it’s also important to learn the basics of the faith so as to become a functional Catholic and to be able to defend the faith in ordinary conversation, but nobody is giving out Theology degrees at the end of this thing.

 

[jmcrae]

If I hadn’t helped with the second series, I never would have had"dubious experience" of watching an LTP film on the glories of unltra-liberal masses. That was an interesting experience–one I could have done without–but interesting nonetheless. They showed several of these types of films in that class.

I may have seen the same one - and it was a theologian with impeccable teaching credentials who was in charge of that particular meeting, so I don’t know but that maybe we need more, not fewer, amateurs in charge.

 

[iloveangels]

I have to tell you that RCIA programs differ hugely from parish to parish. Some of them might be good, like apparently yours was. But some are still so stuck in the 60s it isn’t funny. Most are just bland and insufficient. I’m glad yours is good. I’ll bet your candidates are glad too.

 

[jmcrae]

I have to tell you that RCIA programs differ hugely from parish to parish. Some of them might be good, like apparently yours was. But some are still so stuck in the 60s it isn’t funny. Most are just bland and insufficient. I’m glad yours is good. I’ll bet your candidates are glad too.

Thank you; I think they are.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m asking if that’s what you think because your pointed question to jmcrea about her teaching credentials could lead one to infer that.

The reason I asked is because of a comment about making up hours and hours of missed classes–like 12 hours a week which is a lot. Most experienced teachers wouldn’t do that in that precise way, with most students, because it teaches the wrong lessons about responsibility and initiative, frankly. It’s not a matter of the teacher’s time, it’s a matter of wisely preventing people from learning to “game” the system which some people will learn to do without even trying to be “bad” or “moochy.” They can learn it almost automatically, even with the best of intentions. It’s a stimulus-reward thing. It’s not even a moral thing, more of an item of human psychology.

On the other side of the exchange, it may be very satisfying for the teacher to put in lots of extra time. It scratches your “helping people” itch, and makes you feel very committed and hard-working, but it doesn’t help the students much. It’s can be a self-reinforcement thing, and it can be very counterproductive.

That said, there are certain very rare circumstances to which this doesn’t apply particularly, but they are very rare and generally involve students with unusual properties in a highly specialized setting. You shouldn’t ever see 6 of them in a single week in a parish-style group made up of the general population.

I’m a very experienced teacher and that’s where my comment comes from.

Anytime you’re working harder than your students are, they’re not doing enough of the work to learn what they need to learn–and that’s from a very experienced teacher’s perspective.

 

[jmcrae]

The reason I asked is because of a comment about making up hours and hours of missed classes–like 12 hours a week which is a lot. Most experienced teachers wouldn’t do that in that precise way, with most students, because it teaches the wrong lessons about responsibility and initiative, frankly. It’s not a matter of the teacher’s time, it’s a matter of wisely preventing people from learning to “game” the system which some people will learn to do without trying to be “bad” or “moochy.” They just learn it if they are in some way rewarded for it. It’s not even a moral thing, more of an item of human psychology.

The alternative would be that they miss the session altogether; I’m not sure where the “reward” comes into it.

Anytime you’re working harder than your students are, they’re not doing enough of the work to learn what they need to learn–and that’s from a very experienced teacher’s perspective.

As opposed to no work at all? Keep in mind, this isn’t a situation where one can issue a failing grade for work not completed. The only thing that happens if I let them miss the session altogether is that they enter the Church without having received that particular information. Also, this is for situations where it simply wasn’t possible for the person to attend the class, due to work or other uncontrollable circumstance. If someone skips and doesn’t give a reason, I don’t typically offer a make-up class - I’ll give one if they ask for it, but mostly it’s for those people you were mentioning earlier, who would otherwise end up not being able to participate at all, if we didn’t accommodate their special needs.

 

[iloveangels]

The alternative would be that they miss the session altogether; I’m not sure where the “reward” comes into it.

Try make-up sessions with several people at a time. And expect them to be there. If they’re missing multiple chances at picking up the same information, you have to wonder how much they’re putting into this process. If you don’t get them to stretch just a little bit every time, they might not be willing to stretch later when there’s no RCIA coach watching them. Like after Easter.

Now it shouldn’t be “tough love,” because you don’t want to scare them or anything. But they should be expected in a good, gentle, kind cooperative way to make these arrangements and go along with you.

As opposed to no work at all? Keep in mind, this isn’t a situation where one can issue a failing grade for work not completed. The only thing that happens if I let them miss the session altogether is that they enter the Church without having received that particular information.

Did I say that there are only 2 possibilities? Like 12 hours of makeups vs. no attempt at all? No, I did not say that.

About the people who can’t make it: Does your parish have a way to make arrangements for someone with a managed mental illness–like a problem with panic attacks, post-traumatic disorders or something of the sort? Or shut-ins? What does your parish look like? Would it be accepting of someone very, very poor or from another culture and more comfortable in another language? These are the kinds of things I’m getting at.

We have a problem here in the US with hispanics setting up their own charismatic-style churches because they don’t feel welcome in the ones that have been here for 100 years, all Anglo and resistently Irish & German in style, and English in language. We have a lot of blacks here in the upper midwest but only recently have they started to feel welcome in Catholic churches. We have a lot of very poor people, many of them the descendants of unchurched or Protestant families, who are restive with formality and so on. And people in nursing care facilities, jails, shelters and so on.

 

[iloveangels]

PS. Time is a value in our culture. It’s like any other coin of value to post-modern people. It’s very important that people learn implicitly–aka they might not be able to verbalize it, but they learn it anyway–that time is something that is given, donated in order to worship in the Catholic Church.

It’s non-negotiable. When you worship, you delegate time to worship. It’s very important.

The reward for not setting aside time for RCIA and other things is also the same coin-time. It’s important that people realize that belonging to the church is a commitment.

If people can’t make makeup sessions unless they are individualized, this may very well be a problem for them later when they have to manage time to get to other things, even mass. You don’t want to encourage this kind of thing even unconsciously.

PS. I’m talking about people in the general population now, not people with other difficulties like transportation problems, sick kids, learning problems, psychological difficulties, and so on. Most people you see in most RCIA programs are general population.

PPS. I’m also assuming you know enough about educational research and educational psychology to have some experience with stimulus-response theory, right? Things that get rewarded, even intermittently, are perpetuated etc etc. This is basic high school teacher stuff.

 

[jmcrae]

Try make-up sessions with several people at a time. And expect them to be there. If they’re missing multiple chances at picking up the same information, you have to wonder how much they’re putting into this process. If you don’t get them to stretch just a little bit every time, they might not be willing to stretch later when there’s no RCIA coach watching them. Like after Easter.

Did I say that there are only 2 possibilities? Like 12 hours of makeups vs. no attempt at all? No, I did not say that.

About the people who can’t make it: Does your parish have a way to make arrangements for someone with a managed mental illness–like a problem with panic attacks or something of the sort? Or shut-ins? What does your parish look like? Would it be accepting of someone very, very poor or from another culture?

“Another culture” than what? This is Canada; this is Alberta - oil country - our parish is made up of people from all over the world, and a wide variety of cultures. My most recent Inquirer just arrived from China with ConocoPhillips a few weeks ago; she is practicing her English in RCIA. Last week she learned “forgive us our trespasses.” We spent a whole hour on that phrase. My boss is from India; my best friend is from the Philippines.

I don’t know how much anybody makes or whether they consider themselves poor; I don’t know how that would become relevant in RCIA.

We have catechized deaf people and people with Down’s Syndrome, as well as people with literacy issues (we used a lot of video segments from YouTube, in their case). I’m not aware of ever having dealt with someone who experiences panic attacks, although I have worked with people who had higher anxiety than what seems to be normal. Of course, people can burst into tears in the middle of a meeting for any reason (this happened to me once; we dealt with it and then we carried on). I think if someone told me that they were subject to panic attacks, I would just ask them what they need me to do for them.

I worked once with a group who had been drug addicts; they took three years to complete their RCIA, but by the end of it they were still clean and sober, and they are better Catholics today than I could have hoped for when I first met them - they attend Mass every Sunday and during the week regularly, they participate actively in the Knights of Columbus, and they do whatever the priests ask them to do.

We also have a prison ministry; I’m not directly involved with it, but we do get a few converts through that, as well.

 

[Hmgbrd]

I would like to add something about the RCIA program that I completed this Spring. One thing that attracted this former non catholic to the CC in the first place was that it did not “recruit” prospective new Catholics. It did not “compete” with other christian denominations for parishoners. It was what it was, universal, pure, open and not pushy. No one forced any of us to convert. There were people there who had attended before and had come back. Catholics from the parish that wanted to improve their knowlege of the Faith. Our focus was on Catholicism not on each other. Two of our priests taught the class, and if you truly were hungry for the Word you made it a point to come. This hunger united us over the period of a year. For some who had the occasional conflict and asked, a DVD of the session could be made available so that he/she would not fall behind. We were given books and were responsible to prepare for the study sessions. Quality of spiritual learning and not quantity or quotas were paramount. Later I found out that there was a spiritual secret weapon at work as well that we didn’t know about! On the nights that we met, on the floor directly below us at the same time, the Legion of Mary had their meeting and was praying for all of us!! With RCIA as with anything, what you put into it is what you get out of it. You learn what it means to be a catholic. No regrets

 

[iloveangels]

“Another culture” than what? This is Canada; this is Alberta - oil country - our parish is made up of people from all over the world, and a wide variety of cultures. My most recent Inquirer just arrived from China with ConocoPhillips a few weeks ago; she is practicing her English in RCIA. Last week she learned “forgive us our trespasses.” We spent a whole hour on that phrase. My boss is from India; my best friend is from the Philippines.

We have this here too. The world has changed. We’ve gone global.

I don’t know how much anybody makes or whether they consider themselves poor; I don’t know how that would become relevant in RCIA.

People tend to look down on those who dress very poorly–aka bedroom slippers instead of shoes, no coat in winter. No teeth, no dentures, no car, nothing to bring to the potluck. We have those things here. Maybe you don’t there.

We have catechized deaf people and people with Down’s Syndrome, as well as people with literacy issues (we used a lot of video segments from YouTube, in their case). I’m not aware of ever having dealt with someone who experiences panic attacks, although I have worked with people who had higher anxiety than what seems to be normal. Of course, people can burst into tears in the middle of a meeting for any reason (this happened to me once; we dealt with it and then we carried on). I think if someone told me that they were subject to panic attacks, I would just ask them what they need me to do for them.

Exactly right. Some people find it very hard to sit in groups of people for long periods of time. They tend to get left out.

I worked once with a group who had been drug addicts; they took three years to complete their RCIA, but by the end of it they were still clean and sober, and they are better Catholics today than I could have hoped for when I first met them - they attend Mass every Sunday and during the week regularly, they participate actively in the Knights of Columbus, and they do whatever the priests ask them to do.

We also have a prison ministry; I’m not directly involved with it, but we do get a few converts through that, as well.

Very good. Many parishes don’t have these things. There are a lot of differences between RCIA sessions across the US, from being very good to being downright dissenting and destructive, with everything else in between.

I have to ask. Are you in a city, a suburb or a country setting? You don’t have to tell me where online. It’s best you don’t. But the size of the place where you are may have something to do with this. It sounds like you have made more provisions than usual for people, and this is excellent.

 

[jmcrae]

PPS. I’m also assuming you know enough about educational research and educational psychology to have some experience with stimulus-response theory, right? Things that get rewarded, even intermittently, are perpetuated etc etc. This is basic high school teacher stuff.

Yes, I’m well aware of stimulus-response theory, and I appreciate your concerns. As I mentioned, the make-up sessions are for those who would otherwise be unable to participate; we are not rewarding sloth.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, I’m well aware of stimulus-response theory, and I appreciate your concerns. As I mentioned, the make-up sessions are for those who would otherwise be unable to participate; we are not rewarding sloth.

Good.

 

[jmcrae]

We have this here too. The world has changed. We’ve gone global.

People tend to look down on those who dress very poorly–aka bedroom slippers instead of shoes, no coat in winter. We have those things here. Maybe you don’t there.

I would be more inclined to think they were a spoiled rich kid if they dressed like that - people dress so strangely nowadays that I can’t remember what “normal” looks like any more.

I have to ask. Are you in a city, a suburb or a country setting? You don’t have to tell me where online. It’s best you don’t. But the size of the place where you are may have something to do with this. It sounds like you have made more provisions than usual for people, and this is excellent.

Don’t get me wrong; I don’t go looking for these things. I simply respond to the needs that present themselves at the time. I find that God’s grace is sufficient for any weakness of my own.

When the deaf people showed up at the door, I called around for a translator, and we did the sessions with a translator. I’d do it again for sure, but I don’t have “RCIA for the Deaf” as a special program or anything like that.

Same with the recovering drug addicts; when they showed up at the door, I asked them what they needed me to do for them, and we plodded along one step at a time until we got there, but I don’t have “RCIA for Recovering Drug Addicts” as a special program. It’s just that we respond to the need where the people are at, and we take it from there.

 

[iloveangels]

And it’s an irrelevant question, because RCIA is not Theology 101. The reason it’s run by lay people instead of priests is precisely because the point of the exercise is to become integrated members of the parish community, to come to believe what the people of that community believe, and share in their celebrations, especially Sunday Mass.

Obviously it’s also important to learn the basics of the faith so as to become a functional Catholic and to be able to defend the faith in ordinary conversation, but nobody is giving out Theology degrees at the end of this thing.

I agree with the goal. Getting the pressing questions answered so you can come into the Church–and then learning to be comfortable enough in the Church to stay in it and keep learning, believing and trying–is the goal, not some theology degree.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

We have this here too. The world has changed. We’ve gone global.

People tend to look down on those who dress very poorly–aka bedroom slippers instead of shoes, no coat in winter. No teeth, no dentures, no car, nothing to bring to the potluck. We have those things here. Maybe you don’t there.

Exactly right. Some people find it very hard to sit in groups of people for long periods of time. They tend to get left out.

Very good. Many parishes don’t have these things. There are a lot of differences between RCIA sessions across the US, from being very good to being downright dissenting and destructive, with everything else in between.

I have to ask. Are you in a city, a suburb or a country setting? You don’t have to tell me where online. It’s best you don’t. But the size of the place where you are may have something to do with this. It sounds like you have made more provisions than usual for people, and this is excellent.

People who have a hard time sitting in a group for a long period of time…like at Mass?

Seriously you seem to be judging all the RCIA programs and seem to be going out of your way to insult those that do volunteer but yet fail to put your money where your mouth is.

Could it be that you don’t know everything about the RCIA process?

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

No, it has nothing to do with sacramental theology. It’s refers to people who’ve been Catholic all their lives and were automatically Catholics. Many of them don’t know their faith well at all and take it very much for granted.

I heartily disagree. There are many people who cannot, for very good reasons, sit in a PTA-like meeting of upper middle class aspirants and listen to presentations for hours.

We agree on this one, and yet a good percentage of every RCIA class consists of these folks. A fair number of them are also seeking annulments concurrently, which are usually granted.

** This is actually not the case. The people who cannot sit in those tidy meetings never cross the Church’s radar. It’s like they’re invisible to the system. Those who operate the system prefer not to think about this. They really only want to attract a certain kind of convert**.

You have never explained this quote that I can see…it seems rather uncharitable and judgemental of those running RCIA from face value. Perhaps you care to explain?