A clarion call to restore our beautiful Catholicism

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edwest211 said:
This occurred above all because in many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church."
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You are misrepresenting how it happened. Lefebrve and his followers weren’t on board with the new Mass at all from the beginning and he was refusing to implement the changes. His wasn’t a reaction to a deformed form of the new Mass. The schismatic status of SSPX was only clear in 1988 with the excommunication of Bishops.
 
You are accusing Pope Benedict of not writing about what actually happened.

“We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level.”
 
Tis_Bearself said:
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Emeraldlady:
Why do we have to have this faction who want to holis bolis go back to the preVII Church rather than work together with our new guidelines?
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As long as they’re not schisming off from the Church, how are they bothering you and your children? I managed to go 50+ years on this earth as a cradle Catholic before I knew what a trad was, other than somebody who in the 50s preferred old school jazz music.
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I’m finding the battle against other Catholic ideologies now that my children are in their mid 20’s to be the most fierce of all. 2 of my 3 children are very active in the Catholic community and their social life is almost exclusively with Catholic youth. My daughter has recently started going to Monday night Latin Mass and she loves the Mass. She’s bought clothes that are in the Latin Mass fashion which I think are lovely. But I have to combat the anti Pope Francis attitude they have and the need to judge ordinary Catholics because each practicing person is on their own path and should never be condemned for their efforts. I have to tell her that ‘Novus Ordite’ is a slur and not to use it. I don’t want to deter her from experiencing the Mass so I word it in such a way that not all of them are like that. But it is a battle royal to make sure she doesn’t succumb to the ugly side of it.
 
edwest211 said:
You are accusing Pope Benedict of not writing about what actually happened.

“We all know that, in the movement led by Archbishop Lefebvre, fidelity to the old Missal became an external mark of identity; the reasons for the break which arose over this, however, were at a deeper level.”
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No I was referring to your commentary that the Lefebvre type resistance was a reaction to a deformed version of the new Mass. It wasn’t played out like that. He just didn’t want it changed at all.
 
My commentary directly referenced the document in question. Pope Benedict made it clear that the missal was being abused in some cases, leading to a deformation of the liturgy. The issue with Archbishop Levebvre was also accurately addressed by the Pope. Two different topics.
 
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Apologies. I mistook your second post as your commentary. But all the same, it still remains that opposition to the new Mass was there from the beginning as Lefebrve demonstrated in refusing to implement the changes. There are a lot of Catholics still today who revere Lefebrve for that reason.

My argument is that if the (lets call them the) ultra conservatives of the mid 1960’s, had accepted that the reformulation of the liturgy was a work of the Holy Spirit, and instead of rejecting it, been part of ensuring the formulations were what VII envisaged, we would have not had the free for all that happened.
 
I sometimes attend Mass at the local Norbertine abbey and while they would probably be called modernist by this forum, they’re a solid bunch, spiritually.
 
I can’t see how you could say that. The “free for all” was a carefully planned attack on the Church and society at the time. Radicals and dissidents inside and outside the Church wanted to turn the West into their image and likeness. Their extremely bad influence was essential to getting people to accept that. I remember when the first “Head Shop” (head for dopehead) opened in my neighborhood. Did we ask for this? No. Who placed this in our neighborhood? Who paid the rent?

And what did they sell? Radical underground newspapers with a Marxist/Communist bent, along with more than a bit of anarchy. Underground comix with depictions of perverse sexuality and drug ‘trips.’ Then there were spring-loaded roach clips designed to hold your joint so you didn’t burn your fingers when getting your last toke. Black-light posters and a perverse poster. Oh yeah, selling bad influences was their job.

You don’t have to read the entire article I’m linking to but it confirms what I’m saying.

 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Oh, I see. But at least they are practicing, and they’ll get theirs when they have kids who probably will have their own ideas.
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Actually I’ve pointed out something like that to her on a number of points. Particularly the anti NFP issue. I don’t think I’ve ever met a good holy Catholic grandma that maintains that ideology in their old age. It is a Church accepted method of planning your family and beyond that it is no one elses business.
 
An equal and much more accurate argument is if the "let’s call them the’ ultraprogressives of the mid 1960s had accepted Pope Paul VI’s Humanae Vitae instead of sending out huge letter campaigns against it, doing political agitating (google the Berrigan brothers), and kept on trying to claim that the Church needed to/should ‘catch up with the world’ by having women priests, allowing contraception, allowing intercommunion, etc., in such a way that THEY were the ones actually rejecting the teachings of the Catholic Church, we would not have had the ‘free for all’ that happened.

And just how many people between 1970 and the age of the Internet (around 2000) even heard of Archbishop Lefevre as opposed to the millions who regularly heard from the Berrigans, and their bishops and priests who went way, way beyond what Vatican 2 actually taught, and were rather loud-mouthed in their rejection of the papal office when it came to Humanae Vitae?

By the time you’re at even 1995 (and the internet was still in its infancy and not available to most), you are a full generation from the conclusion of Vatican 2.

So all the people who were actually involved during the time that you’re speaking of had to work with word of mouth, TV, and print media.

And guess who had a lock on those? Not the traditionalists, that’s for sure.
 
That’s exactly what happened. The media presented their version of Vatican II, not the actual Vatican II.
 
Emeraldlady said:
My daughter has recently started going to Monday night Latin Mass and she loves the Mass. She’s bought clothes that are in the Latin Mass fashion which I think are lovely. But I have to combat the anti Pope Francis attitude they have and the need to judge ordinary Catholics because each practicing person is on their own path and should never be condemned for their efforts. I have to tell her that ‘Novus Ordite’ is a slur and not to use it.
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Ugh! 🙊

I’ve been fortunate enough to meet very few if any people who fit this bill among our Young Adults group at our “TLM parish”, but a couple of them have confessed to having once espoused such views. They’ve since come to their senses. Take solace in that these fits of indignation are likely due more to the passion of youth than any fundamental change in her charity. She’ll come around one day after she’s finished painting the whole world in grayscale and starts asking herself why there are all these colors left on her palette.

Love,
Another know-it-all who’s probably only a couple years older than your daughter. 🙂
 
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