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cteslak
Guest
How can God be vengeful and wipe everybody out (story of Noah) on one hand and be considered a loving, compassionate, merciful on the other?
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Magnanimity
Guest
Well, sure anybody would have to admit that, prima facie at least, justice and mercy are at odds with each other. However, if a human could be characterized as both a just and merciful person, and this certainly seems likely, I’m curious as to why it would be a problem for God?
Perhaps the best way to approach it is from the perspective of the free moral agent that God created. Whether I am under God’s wrath or God’s mercy has much to do with me, according to the things I’ve willed to do. I think there would only be a contradiction involved if the referent of God’s mercy or wrath were the same. That is, if God were both wrathful and merciful toward the same individual at the same time. But, even in the case you bring up, God is merciful to Noah and his family and not to anyone else. Now, had God placed Noah on the Ark and then a moment later without Noah or his family having done anything immoral God just decides to place Noah under his wrath and destroy him too, that would be a serious problem, I think. But, that wasn’t the case. The upright family is spared (ie, under God’s mercy), and the reprobate are not (ie, are under His wrath), which is not contradictory since the referents of the mercy/wrath are different.
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threej_lc
Guest
I don’t particularly like this example, but it makes sense.
If your pet dog was suffering from a painful, terminal ailment, would you put it to sleep? Most people tend to do so, out of mercy.
The putridness and disgust and sinfulness of the human race at that time in God’s eyes was the same as if we had been inflicted with a terrible, painful illness. Thus his judgement was his mercy.
Josh
If your pet dog was suffering from a painful, terminal ailment, would you put it to sleep? Most people tend to do so, out of mercy.
The putridness and disgust and sinfulness of the human race at that time in God’s eyes was the same as if we had been inflicted with a terrible, painful illness. Thus his judgement was his mercy.
Josh
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
How can the Being who created us be considered “vengeful” if He brings about our physical destruction? He brought about our physical creation, didn’t He?
“The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”
And do remember that you are reading the Old Testament with the story of Noah. The Bible is not some history text --it is a mixture of history, law codes, allegory, mystical language, love poetry, proverbs, petitioning prayer, thankful prayer, to name just a few.
The main problem I think you might have, cteslak, is in attempting to limit God to our “human” thoughts and ways. Remember, He said, “For My ways are not your ways, and My thoughts are not your thoughts.”
Yet the Lord is holy, omniscient, omnipotent, loving, patient and kind.
Either you believe in God and the revealed truth of His goodness and mercy, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. . .
or you get hung up going, “but, but, but. . .” He did these horrible things, so how CAN He be good–that isn’t MY definition of goodness!
Bottom line: Is God defined by YOU, or are YOU defined by God?
Trust in Him. Love Him. Believe in Him.
“The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.”
And do remember that you are reading the Old Testament with the story of Noah. The Bible is not some history text --it is a mixture of history, law codes, allegory, mystical language, love poetry, proverbs, petitioning prayer, thankful prayer, to name just a few.
The main problem I think you might have, cteslak, is in attempting to limit God to our “human” thoughts and ways. Remember, He said, “For My ways are not your ways, and My thoughts are not your thoughts.”
Yet the Lord is holy, omniscient, omnipotent, loving, patient and kind.
Either you believe in God and the revealed truth of His goodness and mercy, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life”. . .
or you get hung up going, “but, but, but. . .” He did these horrible things, so how CAN He be good–that isn’t MY definition of goodness!
Bottom line: Is God defined by YOU, or are YOU defined by God?
Trust in Him. Love Him. Believe in Him.
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Middlefork
Guest
How then would you explain Job?
Tantum ergo
Exactly
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jaralenio
Guest
It is against God Nature to contradict himself, it is impossible. For instance God is pure love so the direct contradiction to that would be pure hate which God cannot be. God has reveled truths about himself through His Church, Bible and Tradition and none of his teachings contradict. In reading the Bible we must take many things into consideration; languages, culture, writing style. We cannot read the Bible with a 21st century mentality, that’s why the Church is the interpreter of the Bible.
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system
Guest
Becuase loving, compassionate and merciful are human attribute.
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cteslak
Guest
Tantum ergo:
I do realize the story of Noah is in the Old Testament and all that goes with it. I am not some fundamentalist that tries to take every word in the Bible as the literal truth. I understand that there are many factors such as history, storytelling, hyperbole and other literary forms of writing, translation, context, and other factors used in interpretting various passages in the Bible. I trust the Catholic Church to properly interpret the Bible for me because I don’t have the knowledge necessary to do it.
As for your “limiting God” argument, you are basically saying that I am so intellectually small compared to God that I could never understand the answer to my question of why God would behave the way it is recorded in Noah. That is quite probably true.
Your closing statement of who defines whom goes even farther from answering my question because you are not attempting to help answer it but are judging my question. Of course I am defined by God and not the reverse. But was I not created in His image. Does not my properly formed conscience cause me to judge thing from the Catholic perspective. How can it be so far off as to generate such criticism from attempting to learn something so seemingly basic a theological question?
If you believe that God felt that Noah and his family were the only humans on the planet (you can define “world” any way you like) who were worth saving, then how do you explain the slaughter of innocent babies in the flood as there statistically must have been?
Furthermore, when the flood is over and God creates a rainbow as a sign that He would never again destroy all the people of the planet in a flood, was that out of guilt. Did God know that it was wrong? Or am I interpreting the rainbow part of the story incorrectly?
Before anyone answer these questions, know that I am a very devout Catholic trying to deepen my faith but sometimes lack the right words to convince a couple atheist friends of mine that there even is a God much less trying to address His behavior.
–CTESLAK
This is the same as saying, God can destroy every living thing on earth because He’s al powerful and can do whatever He wants. I don’t disagree but it doesn’t answer the question of whay would he be seen as the punishing God and the God to be feared in the Old Testament and as the Kind and Loving and Merciful God in the New Testament.
I do realize the story of Noah is in the Old Testament and all that goes with it. I am not some fundamentalist that tries to take every word in the Bible as the literal truth. I understand that there are many factors such as history, storytelling, hyperbole and other literary forms of writing, translation, context, and other factors used in interpretting various passages in the Bible. I trust the Catholic Church to properly interpret the Bible for me because I don’t have the knowledge necessary to do it.
As for your “limiting God” argument, you are basically saying that I am so intellectually small compared to God that I could never understand the answer to my question of why God would behave the way it is recorded in Noah. That is quite probably true.
Your closing statement of who defines whom goes even farther from answering my question because you are not attempting to help answer it but are judging my question. Of course I am defined by God and not the reverse. But was I not created in His image. Does not my properly formed conscience cause me to judge thing from the Catholic perspective. How can it be so far off as to generate such criticism from attempting to learn something so seemingly basic a theological question?
If you believe that God felt that Noah and his family were the only humans on the planet (you can define “world” any way you like) who were worth saving, then how do you explain the slaughter of innocent babies in the flood as there statistically must have been?
Furthermore, when the flood is over and God creates a rainbow as a sign that He would never again destroy all the people of the planet in a flood, was that out of guilt. Did God know that it was wrong? Or am I interpreting the rainbow part of the story incorrectly?
Before anyone answer these questions, know that I am a very devout Catholic trying to deepen my faith but sometimes lack the right words to convince a couple atheist friends of mine that there even is a God much less trying to address His behavior.
–CTESLAK
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puzzleannie
Guest
God’s creating action is perfect, his sustenance of his creation is perfect, his reasons are perfect. Our understanding and perception of these are imperfect. We cannot ascribe human emotions, reactions, impressions and judgements to God, and we cannot presume to know his reasons, other than as he has revealed them to us. God’s justice is perfect, the sins of the world at the time of the Flood merited much worse than God’s depriving those people of physical life, they merited eternal damnation. We also know that God is perfectly merciful, since each of those persons came before him for judgement, in a condition of perfect knowledge were afforded a choice of being with him for all eternity or choosing damnation. God’s love is not sentimentality, it is perfect.
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RobedWithLight
Guest
God only does what He sees fit. His ways are not our ways, and is wise beyond mere words, and so let us not presume too much in knowing what God intends, nor judge Him unfairly with our petty, paltry human standards. Let us just accept that God knows what is best for His creation.
Gerry
Gerry
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AnAtheist
Guest
The negation of “all horses are white” is not “all horses are black” but “there is at least one non-white horse”.
Thus pure hate is not the contradiction of pure love, but one act of non-love negates the concept of pure love. And the bible describes plenty of those.
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Fidelis
Guest
Cteslak - You ask lot’s of good questions, but they are tough questions perhaps beyond the limitations of a forum like this. If you are dealing with atheists, I highly recommend a book that would be very helpful, as it thoroughly addresses every question I’ve seen you ask so far.
The Handbook of Christian Apologetics
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0194.html?L+scstore+qldm9661fff2eef2+1119808702
If you’re not ready for that, here’s something to get you started.
Beginning Apologetics Vol. 4: How To Answer Atheists And New Agers
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0109.html?L+scstore+qldm9661fff2eef2+1120411750
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Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello cteslak,
God is love and God is going to alow many people, who freely choose not His ways, to burn in hell. First of all do we agree that in the begining God told Adam and Eve that if they sinned they would die? Still today Jesus and the Father clearly tell us that those who do not repent from sin, will be cast into hell? Do we agree that our God of Adam and Eve does not contradict our God of today?
God tells us that He “cut off” all life from the earth because it was all wicked. There was no hope of the earth producing good fruit because the wicked kept leading the innocent astray. So the worthless crop was plowed under and a new crop was replanted through Noah. Man was no longer allowed to live for multi-hundreds of years and God now commanded man to “cut off” the wicked who lead the crop astray. This helped in developing a new crop which would produce a bountiful crop of fruit to be hauled into the Kingdom of God.
Jesus explains cutting off the non-producing vine and to “cut off” the wicked from the Body of the Church is explained in the scriptures. Please visit Throwing Stones
God’s goal in the beginning and in the end is to have a bountiful crop of saints in heaven who have produced the fruit of the Kingdom of God which is love for God. Please visit www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.**NAB MAT 13:24
**He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
God is love and God is going to alow many people, who freely choose not His ways, to burn in hell. First of all do we agree that in the begining God told Adam and Eve that if they sinned they would die? Still today Jesus and the Father clearly tell us that those who do not repent from sin, will be cast into hell? Do we agree that our God of Adam and Eve does not contradict our God of today?
God tells us that He “cut off” all life from the earth because it was all wicked. There was no hope of the earth producing good fruit because the wicked kept leading the innocent astray. So the worthless crop was plowed under and a new crop was replanted through Noah. Man was no longer allowed to live for multi-hundreds of years and God now commanded man to “cut off” the wicked who lead the crop astray. This helped in developing a new crop which would produce a bountiful crop of fruit to be hauled into the Kingdom of God.
Jesus explains cutting off the non-producing vine and to “cut off” the wicked from the Body of the Church is explained in the scriptures. Please visit Throwing Stones
God’s goal in the beginning and in the end is to have a bountiful crop of saints in heaven who have produced the fruit of the Kingdom of God which is love for God. Please visit www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
NAB MAT 7:13
How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.**NAB MAT 13:24
**He proposed another parable to them. “The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field. While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. The slaves of the householder came to him and said, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?’ He answered, ‘An enemy has done this.’ His slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ He replied, ‘No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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mayra_hart
Guest
iam not an expert on judging god but i found an article that help me understand him. i hope it help:**Who’s Judging Whom? **
Stand before the cross. Look at the body of this suffering servant of God. Look, perhaps, with eyes opened by Mel Gibson’s all but unendurable The Passion. If this is what God did to His own Son — His own being, with Whom He is one — then what hope is there that we will be treated “nicely”? The God who does this is not “the God of niceness.” His scale of grandeur is far different from ours. One has no sense of Him whatever if one does not feel inner trembling and vast distance.
He is not a God made in our image. We are made as (very poor) images of Him — images chiefly in the sense that we experience insight and judgment, decision and love, and that we too have responsibilities.
This is the God who made the vastness of the Alps and the Rockies and the Andes; who knows the silence of jungles no human has yet penetrated; who made all the galaxies beyond our ken; who gave to Mozart and Beethoven and Shakespeare and Milton and Dante and legions of others great talents; who infused life into the eyes of every newborn, and love into the hearts of all lovers; and imagined, created, and expressed love for all the things that He made. He made all the powers of storms, and all the immense force of earthquakes, and the roiling and tumultuous churning of the oceans. He imagined all the beautiful melodies we have ever heard, and more that we have not.
God is God. God is our Judge. We are not His judge.
Stand before the cross. Look at the body of this suffering servant of God. Look, perhaps, with eyes opened by Mel Gibson’s all but unendurable The Passion. If this is what God did to His own Son — His own being, with Whom He is one — then what hope is there that we will be treated “nicely”? The God who does this is not “the God of niceness.” His scale of grandeur is far different from ours. One has no sense of Him whatever if one does not feel inner trembling and vast distance.
He is not a God made in our image. We are made as (very poor) images of Him — images chiefly in the sense that we experience insight and judgment, decision and love, and that we too have responsibilities.
This is the God who made the vastness of the Alps and the Rockies and the Andes; who knows the silence of jungles no human has yet penetrated; who made all the galaxies beyond our ken; who gave to Mozart and Beethoven and Shakespeare and Milton and Dante and legions of others great talents; who infused life into the eyes of every newborn, and love into the hearts of all lovers; and imagined, created, and expressed love for all the things that He made. He made all the powers of storms, and all the immense force of earthquakes, and the roiling and tumultuous churning of the oceans. He imagined all the beautiful melodies we have ever heard, and more that we have not.
God is God. God is our Judge. We are not His judge.
M
mayra_hart
Guest
It would be the greatest and most obscene of illusions for a man, any man, to imagine that he has greater love for a child mangled in the oily, dark waters of the recent tsunami than the Creator of that child has. It would be like Ivan Karamazov being unable to forgive God so long as one single child anywhere went to bed at night crying in loneliness and in pain. Who is Karamazov to think that his own love for that child — a purely abstract, speculative, hard-case, counterexample love — is greater than that of the child’s Creator?
The tapestry on which God weaves human existence is not the tapestry within the framework of time that we experience. As we do not comprehend the power of nature (especially nowadays, when we live so far removed from it, so protected from it), even more we do not begin to comprehend the love and goodness of God.
The truth is, the sight and smell of awful human death is sometimes more than we can take. Perhaps we should feel confidence in the power of God’s love, but we do not see it. All we feel is the night. Our darkness is as keen as that of the unbeliever and the nihilist.
Yet in that darkness, we the believers alone (not the unbeliever or the nihilist) feel betrayed by One whom we love. We alone feel anguish because we cannot understand.
But it is not as if we had not often before bumped into the limits of our understanding, and recognized nonetheless that there are undeniable glimmerings of powers and presences we know not of. And, like Job, we refuse to deny the power of the goodness and light which we do see, their power to go out into the night in which we cannot now see.
It does seem that the Creator is not always kind, not even just, within the bounded space that we experience. It does seem that the Creator acts with undeniable cruelty. In our time, we have seen unimaginable suffering. Like Job, we cannot deny what we see.
Neither can we deny the Light, which is what makes the absurd seem absurd. Only in contrast to Light is the absurd absurd. Otherwise it is only a brute matter of fact. god bless you all
The tapestry on which God weaves human existence is not the tapestry within the framework of time that we experience. As we do not comprehend the power of nature (especially nowadays, when we live so far removed from it, so protected from it), even more we do not begin to comprehend the love and goodness of God.
The truth is, the sight and smell of awful human death is sometimes more than we can take. Perhaps we should feel confidence in the power of God’s love, but we do not see it. All we feel is the night. Our darkness is as keen as that of the unbeliever and the nihilist.
Yet in that darkness, we the believers alone (not the unbeliever or the nihilist) feel betrayed by One whom we love. We alone feel anguish because we cannot understand.
But it is not as if we had not often before bumped into the limits of our understanding, and recognized nonetheless that there are undeniable glimmerings of powers and presences we know not of. And, like Job, we refuse to deny the power of the goodness and light which we do see, their power to go out into the night in which we cannot now see.
It does seem that the Creator is not always kind, not even just, within the bounded space that we experience. It does seem that the Creator acts with undeniable cruelty. In our time, we have seen unimaginable suffering. Like Job, we cannot deny what we see.
Neither can we deny the Light, which is what makes the absurd seem absurd. Only in contrast to Light is the absurd absurd. Otherwise it is only a brute matter of fact. god bless you all
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ncgolf
Guest
There are plenty of acts of non-love in the Bible … but those are by humans.
There are none by God.
If so please describe them.
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