A different look at judgmentalism

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Like “progress”, “judgmentalism” could have an improper posirive usage. Here’s an example: Though I don’t listen to his stuff anymore, George Carlin, I think, joked about how, at funerals, you would think the dead is always going to heaven the way he/she is spoken of by the priest or minister. It’s true. Someone dies and automatically, someone, who doesn’t know the deceased will say, “He/she is going to a better place”. How does that person know. The deceased could be in hell from selling cocaine to minors–who knows? Being judgmental is about judging someon’e life without knowing about it (and even then, you can’t read minds). I think it would be more profitable for people to be reminded by the clergy presiding that we know not the day nor the hour.
Of course, positive judgmentalism is always better than the negative kind. But then, you never know that some kid, who saw the misdeeds of the one the priest is assuring will be in heaven or the acquaintance believes will be in a better place, won’t be scandalized (not knowing how we adults get sentimentalism mixed up with charity) by thinking that behavior is ok. I think it’s better to instead make excuses for the person’s behavior. That way, sentimentalism is avioded and justice is truly done to the deceased person’s name (or the name of someone not present in a room of gossip about him/her).
Just a thought.
 
Good Morning Church
Do you mean at a funeral only?
I think those kind words are to give hope and comfort to the family and friends.

You are right, that we should be taught a more truthful lesson on the consequences of sin and how we should always make good choices but I do not think a funeral is the place for it.

Am I misunderstanding what you are saying?
 
Our current culture, esp the left, has made a cult of ‘not being judgemental’, esp when it comes to left wing liberal life style choices. No matter how many peircings, tattoos, sexual partners of every shape, size, or gender someone has, we’re not supposed to judge.

I, for one, think it’s getting old. This attititude also has crept into the Church, with priests being afraid to tell it like it is for fear of ‘being judgemental’. Read the letters of Paul and you’ll see he wasn’t afraid to speak clearly and plainly about the sins of others!!!
 
There is a desire among the Culture of Hedonism & Death to have very limited morals and only those defined and enforced by the state. This comes across strongly through our secular media today.

They want truth to be consider subjective, and as long you as lived by your truths, you are fine (unless you affect the liberal elite, then different rules apply).

We are called to make moral judgements every day. We are called to communicate these judgements when they are in the position to help someone else. We are called to call our brothers and sisters to holiness. We are called to speak out against public sin.
 
A very “spiritual word” Huh?
Scripture makes it clear that we are to judge immoral living. We are always to speak out if it is our position to do so. We are never allowed to call bad good nor vise versa nor to confirm “anyone”, including family members, in sin.
What we are not allowed is to decide “how” culpable a person is before God or what God’s disposition of that person’s soul will be. That’s a management problem, as they say.
However, to have everyone who dies immediately given a halo and privileged place in heaven while the mourners - who knew the person-are enduring the Eulogy is “almost” unforgivable. I knew a Priest many moons ago that always gave the "there’s a time to live and a time to die type of a sermon which fit “all” deceased and the mourners.
My opinion only, of course, but it is not loving to miss the opportunity to instruct “all” gathered that tempus fugit.
Did I miss something about this discussion’s point?
Mary, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, please.
Peace on earth to men of good will.
LaVada
 
I believe it was Bishop Sheen who said, " That there will be 2 surprises for us in heaven the first will be who is in heaven and the next will be who is not". <---- paraphrased:hmmm:

My:twocents:

Moe
 
I think it’s very harmful to “canonize” the deceased at a funeral. Suppose they’re languishing in Purgatory and nobody prays for them because the priest told everyone that the deceased is surely in heaven???

Betsy
 
All my dead relatives were at least nominally Protestant, so I really only speak in regards to their type of funeral. It seems to be a time to comfort those who mourn and a time to be together and remember the person you all jointly loved. A sermon that expressed doubt and fear and speculation would be frightening, not comforting.

The sermons I’ve heard at funerals are not promoting a bad lifestyle, they just talk on the good things and assume the best about a person. They just pass over, or don’t talk about the bad stuff. Relatives speak with their good recollections of the deceased. Nobody mentions that the person was a curmudgeon who cheated on the taxes. You don’t have to announce that. And if you don’t, then it is not on the table. You are not promoting cheating by speaking of the nicer facets of their life.
 
What I hate is a funeral where the preacher aggressively evangelizes the mourners. I went to one for a co-worker that felt like being at a timeshare presentation. It was at a CMA church. Ugh! It was a real turn off.
 
In our parish, the Funeral Mass is a MASS. Father always tells everyone who arranges funerals that any eulogizing will be done at the Wake and not during Mass. He is gentle about it but never fails to teach the truth. People notice and they have commented about the beauty of the Mass done properly for the deceased. Any words of comfort, and there are comforting words in his sermons for funerals is strictly according to our faith in Gods Mercy and we are reminded to pray for the soul and let God be God as to the destination of the loved one.

My husbands family are all Protestants and I find it very uncomforting to attend a family funeral. The lack of proper respect and scriptural truth is not beautiful to me. It makes me very sad. They always seem to be Sainted at the service and that is not a comfort. It does raise my awareness to pray for them all though. I guess the position of the only Catholic in the family is not so bad. I always make sure Masses are said for them.
 
Paddy Maguire was a terrible, terrible drunk. His loving wife Molly pleaded with him, begged of him for the children’s sake, to mend his ways. His friends tried to reason with him. Father Murphy quoted the Holy Word. But nothing, absolutely nothing put a dent in Paddy’s custom of getting totally plastered every night. Finally, one day Father Murphy whispered to his poor wife, “Listen, Molly, what you might try is…bzzz bzzz bzzz.”

So late one night, just before the pub was to close, Molly got an old sheet, cut a couple of eye holes in it, pulled it over her head and hid behind the boxwood. And sure enough, Paddy came staggerin’ up the sidewalk right on cue.

Molly leapt out in front of him and shrieked like the Banshee, “EEEEEEEEYOWWWWWWW, Paddy Maguire, I am the DEVIL !!!”

Now Paddy didn’t flinch. Instead he squared his shoulders, smiled, extended his hand and said, “Pleeezed ta meetcha at last I truly am, Mr. Devil Sir. I’m married to yer sister, y’know.”
 
Are you suggesting she drove him to drink??? :confused:

I don’t quite get the connection to this thread…
 
I am not meaning to say anything bad should be said about someone who died. I am just saying we shouldn’t be presumtuous for the dead person.
Sportscasters are always saying “He’s a great guy”. How does he know? That could just be a mask he puts on in socety. Let’s not think that, of course; just have that possibility available to us to be real about human frailty and how it can manifest itself in certain areas of one’s living.
 
we come to bury caesar, not to praise him.
the evil that men do lives after them
the good is oft interred with their bones

so let it be with caesar.

🙂

i think it’s best to speak words of comfort at a funeral, and to wait for better didactic moments to address issues of sin and their consequences.

reminding family and friends of a deceased person’s faults and their consequences is a sure way to alienate them from yourself and the church.

if the person who has passed away has led a less than perfect life, perhaps not mentioning the eternal destination at all, but merely speaking words of love and comfort, is the best tact.

(the opening bit was from julius caesar, by shakespeare, in case you wondered. our discussion reminded me of the quote, so i included it for your amusement. it’s not meant to convey a deeper meaning, just fyi)
 
To judge (oops, here I go being judgmental!) from many of the posts I read on this forum, I would say this might be the distinguishing sin of those who post here–myself included, of course…
 
WE are all called to be Saints, those who have been beatified and Sainted are known to be in Heaven as this has been bound on earth. ALL of God’s children are called to holiness and to sainthood, that is what it is to be with God in heaven, follow Christ and strive to become a saint, this is the path, this is the territory. Now we have to believe that for those who have faith in Christ, live and die in faith, despite their sins, which they may well have been absolved of, and for those who’s hearts we do not know, but the Father does, and sees the love of Him within them,that indeed God our Father is merciful and is ALL love and Jesus our Judge is all love and mercy, we have to believe by their lives, their prayers and our prayers that their eternal home will be heaven and we all live in hope of this. For the Holy Souls in pergatory we pray and by our Merciful and Loving Father by the strength of our faith and prayers and by the justice of love, will have eternal rest in Him.

God Bless you and much peace and love to you xxx
 
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moedom:
I believe it was Bishop Sheen who said, " That there will be 2 surprises for us in heaven the first will be who is in heaven and the next will be who is not". <---- paraphrased:hmmm:

My:twocents:

Moe
Click to expand...
It’s three surprises: those who are there, who we didn’t think would be
those that are not there that we felt sure would be, and third, that we are there.
 
I have given my husband three instructions for my funeral:
  1. bury me in the dress I wore for confirmation (adult convert)
  2. hire a bagpiper to play Ralph Vaughn Williams’ adaptation of Tallis’ Third Mode Melody for “I heard the voice of Jesus say, come unto me and rest”
and
  1. instruct the priest to give the best hell-fire and brimstone homily he can come up with. Fill it with the love of God but don’t let the congregation forget that Death, Judgment, Hell and Heaven are real!
 
Dear work(name removed by moderator)rogress,

If I understand you right, you were not trying to discuss proper conduct at funerals, but the risks of judging – whether positive or negative. Is that correct? If so, this is one of my favorite topics.

Jesus said, “do not judge, and you shall not be judged.” He didn’t specify whether either way it was positive or negative. Personally I think either way is problematic, although I do not negatively judge people who do not see it my way or even realize they are judging.

For example, every once in a long while someone comes up to me after Mass and, referring to my piano or organ playing, says, “you play so well today.” Inevitably this happens the one day I do so poorly it’s all I can do to get out without showing my face. These people are not experts at music, or they would not have said that on that particular day. At first it used to mak me feel horrible, but I have learned to be happy for them that they liked it, warts and all, and thank them for the compliment.

Because of that, I never tell a musician, “you played well” unless it is my student. I do not tell a cook, “the food was excellent,” but “I really enjoyed the food.” I never judge in areas where I do not have expertise.

A more practical issue with judging is giving people feedback, as opposed to giving a dog feedback. When a dog does well, I say, “good boy!” This is proper for a master/subspecies relationship. When my child does well, I say “great job!” but never “good boy!” Once I attached my judgment of a child as “good” or “bad” based on his behavior, that gives the idea that his value to me varies depending on behavior. If the child does a bad thing, I do not say, “that’s a bad boy,” or I have judged. I will say, “what you did was very wrong. I am not pleased” or “I love you too much to let you behave that way.” I admit that I do judge my children, even if naively. I tell them as often as I can how precious they are to me, their mother, and to God, and how good they are. I tell them this totally independently of their behavior.

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind when you ask about judging people? I see so much judgmentalism it hurts sometimes, but I forgive those doing it for they know not what they do.

Alan

P.S. George Carlin may be extremely crude, but some of his comments on the Church are very difficult to objectively dispute. He used to be Irish Catholic, BTW.
 
T.A.Stobie:
We are called to make moral judgements every day. We are called to communicate these judgements when they are in the position to help someone else. We are called to call our brothers and sisters to holiness. We are called to speak out against public sin.
Click to expand...
This is very true. We are called to evaluate fruit, and to encourage each other. In the centuries-old traditional Kalendar, the Fifteenth Sunday after Pentecost (this past Sunday this year) offers Galatians 5:25-26 and 6:1-10 as the Epistle reading. This passage calls us to instruct in the spirit of meekness those who exhibit faults, cautioning us to prove our own works and not to have glory in another person or another person’s works. The correction must not be with insolent zeal for this will encourage a fall into the same sins: I think this is what is meant by *jugde not lest ye be judged; the measure you give is the measure you get *(see Matthew 7:1-2; this segment is often quoted only in the first portion).
 
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