A faith that doesn't save?

[SomeCatholicGuy]

OK, I heard this on a Christian radio station this morning. The host said that a faith without good works is a dead faith. I was kind of surprised, because this was an Evangelical station, and it sounded more Catholic to me. He went on to say that even demons believe that God is the Truth and shudder before him, so people who only believe but do not live their faith are even worse than the devils. This he got from a certain quote from the Gospels that I don’t recall at the moment. Anyway, I just thought this was kind of interesting. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

 

[puzzleannie]

only to observe that very often in discussions among Christians of different denoms on the meaning and necessity of works, the problem arises from the actual definition of “works” as used by the speaker, and by NT writers. Often the difference between “works of the Law” binding on Jews, and “works” describing the lifestyle of the early Christians in Acts, or in Christ’s own judgment of the nations in Matthew 25, which we would call spiritual and corporal works of mercy, is not seen or appreciated.

 

[Trishie]

He was quoting from the letter of St James in the bible, as follows.

"Take the case, my brothers of someone who has never done a single good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of llife, then what good is that?: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead.

This is the way to talk to people of that kind:'You say you have faith and I have good deeds; I will prove to you that I have faith by showing you my good deeds–now you prove to me that you have faith without any good deeds to show.

You believe in one God–that is creditable enough, but the demons have the same belief, and they tremble with fear. Do realise, you senseless man, that faith without works is useless. You surely know that Abraham our Father was justified by his deed, because he offered Isaac on the altar? There you see it; faith and good deeds were working together; his faith became perfect by what he did This is what scripture really means when it says: Abraham put his faith in God, and this was counted as makinh him justified; and that is why he was called the friend of God
You see now that it is by doing something good, and not only by believing, that a man is justified." [James 2: 14-24]

 

[MarcoPolo]

OK, I heard this on a Christian radio station this morning. The host said that a faith without good works is a dead faith. I was kind of surprised, because this was an Evangelical station, and it sounded more Catholic to me. He went on to say that even demons believe that God is the Truth and shudder before him, so people who only believe but do not live their faith are even worse than the devils. This he got from a certain quote from the Gospels that I don’t recall at the moment. Anyway, I just thought this was kind of interesting. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Were you listening to John MacArthur on WMBI 1110 this morning? Here is the archived (“http://swn.edgeboss.net/download/swn/saved/oneplace/mp3/2725056/gt20080820.mp3?siteid=Podcast”) of that episode. I listen to him a lot. He is what I would describe as Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Sometimes he will espouse Catholic teachings, like the primacy of Peter, for example. But then there’s those days when he goes off the deep end and says the Catholic Church is Satanic.

In this particular sermon this morning, and from part 1 yesterday, he was very careful to let his audience know he wasn’t preaching a “works” based salvation. He talked of a person’s faith and capacity for repentance as gifts from God. He is right on the cusp of coming to understand how all our works in Christ have merit, but he cannot cross the threshold because he would have to reverse decades of his own anti-Catholic teaching. He is more along the lines of believing works are an automatic byproduct of what is really a faith alone salvation.

This particular sermon was more geared toward the “saved-in-an-instant-by-stating-Christ-is-Savior” Evangelicals that grew popular in recent decades (MacArthur claimed the roots of this goes back to Charles Finney in 1821 and is “invitational system” Christianity.) He is also not crazy about them.

You also got a taste for his affinity and devotion for Martin Luther (whom he called “a shining light in the history of the Christian Church”) in this morning’s sermon. He quoted Luther’s preface to Romans, in which Luther essentially argued against a works-alone salvation. In light of MacArthur’s sermon, it’s ironic that Luther did not care for the book of James…

 

[SomeCatholicGuy]

Man, you guys are sharp! Nailed the verse and the host! Yea, I only very occasionally listen to that show, when there’s nothing else good on the radio. I caught the last part of the show, but it did make me think. So what exactly is the Catholic definition of “works”?

 

[InLight247]

So what exactly is the Catholic definition of “works”?

The work of love – serve God and neighbors, fulfill the needs around us with compassion.

Love our neighbors as ourselves – not with lip service but in action. What we do to the least of our brothers, we do unto God.
The work toward holiness – that includes but is not limited to the love of God and neighbors – in addition, we work on the living relationship with God, our communion with Him, the denial of self, the picking up of the cross and follow Jesus, the virtues even to be heroic……..........

 

[MarcoPolo]

The work of love – serve God and neighbors, fulfill the needs around us with compassion.
Love our neighbors as ourselves – not with lip service but in action. What we do to the least of our brothers, we do unto God.

The work toward holiness – that includes but is not limited to the love of God and neighbors – in addition, we work on the living relationship with God, our communion with Him, the denial of self, the picking up of the cross and follow Jesus, the virtues even to be heroic……..........

I would also add participating in the Sacraments, which would fall under the “holiness” part. See also works from the Catechism.

 

[danonwaveland]

MarcoPolo,

Do you listen to Relevant Radio, AM 950 in the city and AM 930 in the 'burbs? I haven’t listened to WMBI since Relevant Radio came into being. Just a thought. . .

God bless,
Dan

 

[MarcoPolo]

MarcoPolo,

Do you listen to Relevant Radio, AM 950 in the city and AM 930 in the 'burbs? I haven’t listened to WMBI since Relevant Radio came into being. Just a thought. . .

God bless,
Dan

I do listen to Relevant Radio sometimes. I listen to all…I am often curious as to what Protestant ministers are saying daily, I feel it helps me in ecumenism.

 

[mommyof4]

Man, you guys are sharp! Nailed the verse and the host! Yea, I only very occasionally listen to that show, when there’s nothing else good on the radio. I caught the last part of the show, but it did make me think. So what exactly is the Catholic definition of “works”?

How about some examples?

The traditional enumeration of the corporal works of mercy is as follows:

To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.
The spiritual works of mercy are:

To instruct the ignorant;
To counsel the doubtful;
To admonish sinners;
To bear wrongs patiently;
To forgive offences willingly;
To comfort the afflicted;
To pray for the living and the dead.