A few Eastern Christianity Questions

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OraProNobisIHM

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Hello all,
I was in Kiev for the weekend, and I visited numerous churches. First off, let me say they are lovely, and I think that’s great you guys go all out and make churches look awesome. It’s a shame post-Vatican II church has destroyed all that. ends soapbox

Ok, so, I’m a Latin Rite Catholic, and I have never experienced anything related to the Easterners, so I have NUMEROUS questions, but I am more worried about “general” questions (because I won’t be switching rituals - I love the Traditional Latin Mass too much, and, I’m a Westerner, through and through. 😉 )
  1. Why is your Sign of the Cross right-to-left across the chest?
  2. What’s the deal with you guys and icons?
  3. The Eastern Orthodox guys have beards… how come?
  4. When (Eastern Orthodoxers) leave their church/chapel, they stop, look at the icon, Sign of Cross, bow, Sign of Cross again, and leave. Why?
Many thanks! 😃
Andy

Edit: Sorry for these “simple” questions, but theyr’e the ones that threw me for a curve.
 
OraProNobisIHM said:
Hello all,
I was in Kiev for the weekend, and I visited numerous churches. First off, let me say they are lovely, and I think that’s great you guys go all out and make churches look awesome. It’s a shame post-Vatican II church has destroyed all that. ends soapbox

Ok, so, I’m a Latin Rite Catholic, and I have never experienced anything related to the Easterners, so I have NUMEROUS questions, but I am more worried about “general” questions (because I won’t be switching rituals - I love the Traditional Latin Mass too much, and, I’m a Westerner, through and through. 😉 )
  1. Why is your Sign of the Cross right-to-left across the chest?
  2. What’s the deal with you guys and icons?
  3. The Eastern Orthodox guys have beards… how come?
  4. When (Eastern Orthodoxers) leave their church/chapel, they stop, look at the icon, Sign of Cross, bow, Sign of Cross again, and leave. Why?
Many thanks! 😃
Andy

Edit: Sorry for these “simple” questions, but theyr’e the ones that threw me for a curve.
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  1. Just a variation of custom. I looked it up once, and found no definitive answer. The most common speculation, though, was that it originally right-to-left, the right corresponding to “Holy” and the left to "Spirit. However, when liturgies were created in Latin it was reversed since Latin, unlike Greek, places the adjective after the noun. (i.e. Spiritus Sacto = Spirit Holy)
  2. Another variation of custom. We could just as easily ask, “What’s with Latins and statues?” It’s just cultural.
  3. Another variation of custom. I believe a lot of Church Fathers actually taught that a man should never be clean-shaven.
  4. I’ve actually never seen this, but there are a lot of pious practices that are not universal to all Orthodoxy. There is a lot of freedom on pious expression regarding crossing oneself in Orthodoxy.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
  1. Just a variation of custom. I looked it up once, and found no definitive answer. The most common speculation, though, was that it originally right-to-left, the right corresponding to “Holy” and the left to "Spirit. However, when liturgies were created in Latin it was reversed since Latin, unlike Greek, places the adjective after the noun. (i.e. Spiritus Sacto = Spirit Holy)
  2. Another variation of custom. We could just as easily ask, “What’s with Latins and statues?” It’s just cultural.
  3. Another variation of custom. I believe a lot of Church Fathers actually taught that a man should never be clean-shaven.
  4. I’ve actually never seen this, but there are a lot of pious practices that are not universal to all Orthodoxy. There is a lot of freedom on pious expression regarding crossing oneself in Orthodoxy.
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Hrrrrrrrm. Okeedoke.
So, basically icons are to Easterners as statues are to Latins? 😉

Thanks for the speedy answer!
 
  1. Why is your Sign of the Cross right-to-left across the chest?
  2. What’s the deal with you guys and icons?
  3. The Eastern Orthodox guys have beards… how come?
  4. When (Eastern Orthodoxers) leave their church/chapel, they stop, look at the icon, Sign of Cross, bow, Sign of Cross again, and leave. Why?
**1. The real question is why did the West change? Pope Innocent III, some centuries after the split, described how the Sign of the Cross was still made in the west the way Orthodoxy (and Byzantine Catholics) do it today.
  1. Actually icons are quite UNlike statues. The icon is a liturgical art, supposed to express spiritual truths, not the way things to our present earthly senses, which is why they are deliberaly un-naturalistic.
  2. Almost all grown men have beards. The real question is why do some men shave them off? After all, God knows what a grown man’s face is supposed to look like.
All the Melkite and Ukrainian and other Eastern Catholic clergy (to say nothing of monks) I know are bearded, too.
  1. Must be local Kievan custom. Actually, you’re supposed to bow and make the sign of the Cross twice (called a metania), kiss the icon, and make a third metania.
Did you not find any Ukrainian Catholic Churches in Kiev? It’s the seat of His Beatitude, Patriarch Lubomir of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.**
 
bpbasilphx said:
  1. Why is your Sign of the Cross right-to-left across the chest?
  2. What’s the deal with you guys and icons?
  3. The Eastern Orthodox guys have beards… how come?
  4. When (Eastern Orthodoxers) leave their church/chapel, they stop, look at the icon, Sign of Cross, bow, Sign of Cross again, and leave. Why?
**1. The real question is why did the West change? Pope Innocent III, some centuries after the split, described how the Sign of the Cross was still made in the west the way Orthodoxy (and Byzantine Catholics) do it today.
  1. Actually icons are quite UNlike statues. The icon is a liturgical art, supposed to express spiritual truths, not the way things to our present earthly senses, which is why they are deliberaly un-naturalistic.
  2. Almost all grown men have beards. The real question is why do some men shave them off? After all, God knows what a grown man’s face is supposed to look like.
All the Melkite and Ukrainian and other Eastern Catholic clergy (to say nothing of monks) I know are bearded, too.
  1. Must be local Kievan custom. Actually, you’re supposed to bow and make the sign of the Cross twice (called a metania), kiss the icon, and make a third metania.
Did you not find any Ukrainian Catholic Churches in Kiev? It’s the seat of His Beatitude, Patriarch Lubomir of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.**
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Hi.
  1. No idea? I didn’t know it was done that way.
  2. That’s very interesting. I (obviously) didn’t know that either. I do know they very often are very pretty, to say the least. Is there any way to learn how to “decode” an icon? I know FishEaters has a section on their site, but are there any other places?..
  3. Because they itch. 😉
  4. Ok.
I did find a Ukrainian Catholic Church. They are currently building their cathedral (which is huge), but were in a smaller makeshift wooden chapel (which was very pretty). My friend and I assisted (?) at Divine Liturgy there (although I didn’t understand a word, he understood most of it).

Thanks for the info!
 
Ahhh, Golden Kyiv. You are fortunate indeed to visit the cradle of Christianity for Rus’…
🙂

The beard question is much ado - there are many Orthodox priests (and even bishops) who have no beard as well as Eastern Catholic. While it is more traditional in appearance, it remains a personal preference.
 
BEARDED, UNSHAVEN CLERGY

Orthodox priests and bishops do not shave or cut hair because of divine ordinance given to Moise about how priests of God are to be:

(Левит, 21:1,5): “И сказал Господь Моисею: объяви священникам, сынам Аароновым, и скажи им… Они не должны брить головы своей и подстригать края бороды своей и делать нарезы на теле своем”.

(Leviticus 21:l, 5) And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto the priests the sons of Aaron, and say unto them … They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

This was followed by all Christian priests until 1054. This ordinance followed by most Orthodox priests and bishops.
 
OraProNobisIHM said:
  1. Why is your Sign of the Cross right-to-left across the chest?
  2. What’s the deal with you guys and icons?
  3. The Eastern Orthodox guys have beards… how come?
  4. When (Eastern Orthodoxers) leave their church/chapel, they stop, look at the icon, Sign of Cross, bow, Sign of Cross again, and leave. Why?
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  1. As bpbasilphx already pointed out, the Sign of the Cross was done the Orthodox way by Roman Catholics many years after the Schism, as shown in the writings of some popes who hinted that the reason for the switch was local tradition that blossomed and became popular in the west. In fact, the pope referred to before wrote this explanation:
    A) The Orthodox Way: Christ came down to earth (head, downward) and went first to the Jews (the right) and then the Gentiles (the left)
    B) The Roman Catholic Way: Christ came down to earth (head, downward) and brought us from darkness (the left) to light (the right).
These aren’t necessarily canonical reasons, I’m sure, but they’re interesting to consider.
  1. The “deal” is that icons are windows to heaven. 🙂 They’re not just pretty pictures, although certainly images are important in Orthodox worship. We seek to utilize all our senses in our services, from smell (incense) to sound (the bells) to sight (icons). But besides being beautiful, they serve as reminders of the invisible church (Christ and His saints) being present with the visible church (us). They also seek to remind us of events, such as the Transfiguration, the Annunciation, or the Passion, and draw emotions not towards the icon but towards the event depicted.
Many Church Fathers have written at length on this subject, and supported the importance of icons against the iconoclasts who were always seeking to do away with them. Saint John Damascene is one of the most famous ones, and he wrote many beautiful arguments for iconography. The greatest was a reminder that we were made in the image (or in the original Greek, ikon) of God, and that Christ is quite literally the icon of God. This is even stated in the original Greek of the New Testament at 2 Cor 4:4:

ἐν οἷς ὁ θεὸς τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου ἐτύφλωσεν τὰ νοήματα τῶν ἀπίστων εἰς τὸ μὴ αὐγάσαι τὸν φωτισμὸν τοῦ εὐαγγελίου τῆς δόξης τοῦ Χριστοῦ ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ.

There’s a very nice part in the liturgy that illustrates this: the priest comes out with incense and blesses the icon of Christ, the icon of God, and then turns and blesses the congregation, the icons of God!
  1. This was again also explained - the beards came from Jewish tradition and scripture, and were kept in the Christian Church. I have heard that married priests can be shaven, although this might be more local tradition than canonical - I’ve seen plenty of unshaved married priests.
  2. That’s often more personal or local tradition, as others have pointed out. Some people do it three times, some two. It’s a form of prostration, ie respect, to God.
If you have any other questions, feel free to message me 🙂
 
  1. This was again also explained - the beards came from Jewish tradition and scripture, and were kept in the Christian Church. I have heard that married priests can be shaven, although this might be more local tradition than canonical - I’ve seen plenty of unshaved married priests.
**St. Tikhon the New Martyr served a time as the Russian Orthodox Abp. of San Francisco.

Eventually, he was elected Patriarch of Moscow.

One of the first things he did when installed was to issue an ukaze saying that Russian clergy in the diaspora (by which he particularly meant the USA) were to TRIM hair and beards–not shave them off–and adopt for street wear whatever the recognized clerical dress in their country of residence was. Orthodox clergy traditionally wore cassocks all the time.

In fact, there’s a photo of St. Tikhon in a San Francisco park wearing suit, rabat, and collar.**
 
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut bpbasilphx.

Out of curiosity, have you heard the story of a monk from Mount Athos who came to America and, upon finding American priests who shaved or trimmed their beards, immediately prayed to God to let his beard grow so that he could never do that. Apparently from then on it grew like mad, and he kept his word - he never shaved or trimmed it. In fact he eventually had to keep it in a bag under his chin, and visitors to Mount Athos would often ask him to unravel it so they could see just how long it was.
 
This sounds like an urban legend, Byzantine Wolf.

They exist amongst the Orthodox, as well.
 
No no, he really existed - they have photographs of his beard, including where he kept it. I think his name was Father Athanasius, and the story can be found in the book Contemporary Ascetics of Mount Athos Vol I.
 
I have enjoyed reading all the interesting answers. I have a couple questions. Do all Orthodox have the same books in thier scriptures? Also what books do Orthodox have that Catholics do not have?
 
jlhargus said:
I have enjoyed reading all the interesting answers. I have a couple questions. Do all Orthodox have the same books in thier scriptures? Also what books do Orthodox have that Catholics do not have?
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They’re just about the same, with a few differences. A good comparison of the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant bibles was made by Conciliar Press, and can be found in PDF format here 🙂

orthodoxstudybible.com/uploads/BibleBooksChart.pdf
 
jlhargus said:
JL: Thanks Byzantine, can you tell me when and how the orthodox canon was set. If it has been set.
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Same as the Roman Catholic: Athanasius’ letters, Council of Carthage, etc. I’m not sure about the reasons for the minor differences in the number of books or their names - I know the Greek churches used the Septuagint, it could be there were differences in the Latin Vulgate…don’t quote me on that though. 😊
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Same as the Roman Catholic: Athanasius’ letters, Council of Carthage, etc. I’m not sure about the reasons for the minor differences in the number of books or their names - I know the Greek churches used the Septuagint, it could be there were differences in the Latin Vulgate…don’t quote me on that though. 😊
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JL: Thanks again, for your info. God Bless.
 
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