a few questions

[bejonama]

I’ve been visiting a rather nasty, at least towards Catholics, forum lately and although I haven’t answered a whole lot of the lies they tell about The Church I thought that this would be a good place to start. Anybody have time to guide an amatuer apologist who doesn’t have a whole lot of time up her sleeve. 12 kids and a dh to take care of.

Here is the post I wanted to answer, actually not just answer but explain!

Are you aware that the decrees against freedom of conscience from the Council of Trent were ‘infallibly’ declared by Rome? Yes No

Are you aware that Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors is an ‘infallible’ declaration by an ‘infallible’ Pope? Yes No

Are you aware that Vatican Council II renewed and confirmed all the decrees of the Council of Trent? Yes No

Compare the proofs that freedom of conscience is forbidden with those the permit it. Can you see the inherent contradictions? Yes No

How could Vatican Council II affirm The Council of Trent, and at the same time, make declarations that obviously contradict it? Your Answer?

QCan you now see how Rome can tell you that you are wrong when you say “Outside the Roman Catholic Church there is NO salvation,” by citing the new Catechism of the Catholic Church - and tell someone else they are wrong to believe that they can be saved outside the Church by citing the Council of Trent? Yes No

I call this deception “doublespeak.” What do you call it? Your Answer?

 

[Church_Militant]

I would suggest that you stay off that site. They are (as you have already surmised) nothing more than a load of anti-Catholic drivel.

Yours is the 2nd copy and paste job that I’ve seen from there this week. Same tactic of out-of-context misquotes from documents that he doesn’t supply a link to so that the context can be checked. He won’t do that because if they read the documents for themselves then he’ll be shown to be misleading people. The best way to refute trash like this is to simply go find the documents online and then use the “find” (ctrl f) feature to locate the quote he offers. The context will then blow him slap outta the water. It always does, but most people either don’t have time or are just too lazy to check him, and so the deceptions persist.

Want something better to do with your scant time and build your apologetics knowledge? Get The San Juan Catholic Seminars series of apologetics booklets and study them with your Bible out and a highlighter. You’ll NEVER regret it!
Pax tecum,

 

[PhilVaz]

<< Are you aware that the decrees against freedom of conscience from the Council of Trent were ‘infallibly’ declared by Rome? Yes No >>

No I am not. I think he means freedom of biblical interpretation, etc. Different times, different circumstances. What you need for these is a set of the “Radio Replies” by Rumble/Carty. They go through hundreds of these kinds of objections.

<< Are you aware that Pope Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors is an ‘infallible’ declaration by an ‘infallible’ Pope? Yes No >>

Not exactly, some of them are a little tough to deal with. But here’s a short explanation from Wikipedia, and a long article by Shawn M explaining them.

<< Are you aware that Vatican Council II renewed and confirmed all the decrees of the Council of Trent? Yes No >>

Not a problem, since Trent and Vatican II agree. Trent was more explicit in defining doctrine, while Vatican II confirmed Trent.

<< Compare the proofs that freedom of conscience is forbidden with those that permit it. Can you see the inherent contradictions? Yes No >>

No I do not. Different times, different circumstances, different contexts.

<< How could Vatican Council II affirm The Council of Trent, and at the same time, make declarations that obviously contradict it? Your Answer? >>

Declarations against “freedom of biblical interpretations” or against heretics, schismatics, “let him be anathema” etc and “no salvation outside the Church” ? Different times, different circumstances, different contexts. We’ve moved beyond Trent.

<< Q Can you now see how Rome can tell you that you are wrong when you say “Outside the Roman Catholic Church there is NO salvation,” by citing the new Catechism of the Catholic Church - and tell someone else they are wrong to believe that they can be saved outside the Church by citing the Council of Trent? Yes No >>

The teaching is still the same “Outside the Church is no salvation” but the application to people born outside the Church, separated by 500 years of time, is different. Times, circumstances, context, applications differ.

<< I call this deception “doublespeak.” What do you call it? Your Answer? >>

I call deception a deception, doublespeak a doublespeak, triplespeak a triplespeak, and blasphemy a blasphemy, abomination an abomination, contradiction a contradiction, a truth a truth, and context context context. Words are words, and words mean things in context. It’s late, sorry.

Phil P

 

[RyanL]

So that you know the mind of the Church, here’s a link to the Catechism, para 846 et. seq., regarding “Outside the Church there is no salvation”: link.

Caution: Don’t take what PhilVaz says too far - different times/contexts, true, but there has been no reversal of position. PhilVaz is right, but there is the error of going too far; please read your Bible and your Catechism as a guide. Dogma never changes, though doctrines may develop (differences b/t doctrine and dogma).

Like CM, I would also recommend that you stay clear of that site for a while. Perhaps you could join us here until you feel confident enough to go back?

God Bless,
RyanL