A fresh look at Aquinas' 5 Proofs/Aristotle

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continuation . . .
To take from His being and surround it with nothing to bound it as He is bound, means that all we have comes from Him and we share in His being without in fact being Him. It is His being that animates us, yet because of the nothing we are divided and distinct. Being bounded by nothing makes us in fact made in His image.
But, God is not bound. He is absolutely unrestricted. We are not a bubble within an Infinite God, and He is not a bubble in a larger nothingness.
  1. A limitless first mover is only possible if the first movement is not additive requiring space and time but rather is subtractive thus creating space and time.
An interesting postulation.
if every creation is a self-limiting of God, it is not contrary to His divine nature to limit Himself. “He emptied himself…” (phillipians 2).
This is a reference to the Incarnation. Of course, we know that God subsists as Three Persons in one Supreme Unity. God does not consist of parts - nothing that is infinite can exist as a quantity of parts. Christ emptied Himself of that form which constitutes God. We are not told precisely how.
If the first move was in fact a subtraction then we can indeed posit a single limitless and all-powerful God whose only potential (inherent in His all-powerful nature) is the ability to choose to be less.
Or, all that He is.
That every alternative state is a lesser state.
This is a postulation that seems to derive from your other postulations, not St. Thomas.
To be a creator is to be less then the all encompassing presence. This would mean that God could only move from a state of highest good to a lesser state by choice. This may also mean what God has emptied He has the power to fill up again. Therefore, though he has chosen limitation he has. not truly relinquished His all powerful condition. “no one can take my life from me, I lay it down willingly and I have the power to take it up again” (paraphrase John 12?).
I disagree.
By self reduction it creates a distinction which creates time.
By the positive Creation of mobile being(s), Time simultaneously comes to be. There is no need to “create” time.
There was this moment that God was infinite and now this moment that He is limited. The first moment of limitless being with no distinction I would call the eternal moment. It is not that there isn’t time but that there is only one point rendering the nature of time meaningless. Thus in this singular moment of time there may be action. This is what we call an eternal creation (angels) or may exist the Eternal realities. This is the “to be” present tense moment “I AM”. Therefore the first move creates a second or multiple moments by which time is “created” or given meaning apart from the eternal moment. With the limitation of moment to moment there is needed a border of nothing to distinguish this being from that… This moment from that.
The above is very, very convoluted. It is good to see that you are working it through, as we are supposed to. You need to replace your fanciful definitions with better definitions. That’s all.
I believe that this would be a good place to stop. I hope that these ideas were at least intriguing to one who has stepped into these mysteries. I can’t help but see the crucified Jesus when I think of a creator literally pouring himself out in love to create everything that is. To see God sacrifice himself in love and humility in order that we might exist for relationship with him.
Transcendental Love.
The key point is this, is it possible that the first move was subtractive rather than additive?
Could you define “subtractive rather than additive?” You used these terms hereinabove, but, even there they were unclear.

God bless,
jd
 
According to the definitions in W. Norris Clarke S.J. in the “One and the Many” book on Metaphysics:
Potency is that principle within a being which limits (emphasis mine) some act or actual perfection possessed by the being and is the root of its capacity for change.
FM:

You are conflating the two distinct meanings of “potency.” On the on hand it means, to have within a thing the power, i.e., capability, to do something - which it has not yet done (or achieved). But, the important meaning is the one on the other hand which means the privation of some thing. For example, my left hand on my left side is said to be in privation of my left hand on my right side. That by the process of moving it comes to be on my right side may be called a perfection, in a very wide sense, but not in the precise sense we often mean “perfection.” However, these are the principles, i.e., contraries, of motion.
Passive Potency is the capacity to receive some actual perfection (which means it doesn’t yet have something hence being limited).
Again, here the good Father is referring to something quite different from what you may be thinking. In the sense of possessing a perfection, what you say is true. But, as I have shown above, my left hand on my right side is not a per se perfection. It is merely the contraries of motion.
Active potency is the power to act, to do something, given the proper conditions. The former (passive potency) implies some incompleteness on its own, hence cannot be found in God. The second (Active Potency) implies no incompleteness or imperfection, hence can be found in God: God has the power (active potency) to create the world or not.
If, in fact, you have stated the good Father’s words exactly, then there must be something that we are not being told. In Aquinas’ analysis of motion, there is no such thing as “active potency.” In what you are talking about, there is a matter and form composite that contains within it the desire, or rather, the impetus, to change. That is quite different from “privation.” Privation is simply the absence of something - that it may or may not seek. An acorn is a matter-form composite that is fully in act. It may seek its further perfection as an oak tree, but, that in no way denies its perfection, as a being in act, as an acorn. Is this making some sense, I hope?
My argument is exactly this. That God, if ever infinite, must have been pure and complete active potency (being!).
No! Such an “active potency” would be a severe and continuous limitation of God - not a momentary limitation of Him. Active potency does not equal “being.” There has been talk of God being pure existence. That He is not. Rather, He is Absolute “Being.” "Being does not equal “existence,” however everything that we are familiar with seems to support that conclusion. But, we are unfamiliar with the Reality of the Spiritual. We define the Spiritual only as a negation, i.e., not material, and, perhaps even, not physical. What else do we really know about the spiritual. It is inferred from our sense of perfection(s); and from our sense that the Transcendentals have grounding in Reality.
He pervaded all that is, was all that is, and there were no limits. This Active Potency was in fact the ability to be less, which is the one power the almighty has in potency when He is at the full of exercise of infinite being in complete perfection. Otherwise God would simply be actuality undefined by limits with no potential for change. This would fall in perfect accord would Thomas Aquinas’ understanding that “Act is not limited save by reception into some distinct limiting potency.” (Again from Clarke, Ch. 10 p. 157)
Sorry, but you are again conflating the two distinct uses of the word “potential.” I do not have Clarke’s book so I can only conjecture that he is talking about something completely different from what you are. What is the title of the chapter you are quoting from? That might help.

God bless,
jd
 
I would like to thank those who have posted replies above. I will reply to them in the near future. However, it may be a good point to listen and absorb a bit before simply rambling on with my theories.

What I am content to say in Faith I challenge in reason because for me there is a gap. I am not content with the logical argument of an infinite God who created other beings yet is some how not separate from them at all. How is it that a God who “permeates” all things is somehow distinct from all things. How is it that the Father is a Spiritual Being and is not material, yet we say he is unlimited… wouldn’t he be limited from the material realm? “Of Course Not” my friends would say… Jesus was God incarnate or in material form, but he was limited in that material form (even if he is unlimited in his spiritual form). Is it so hard to see the frustration of conceding to a declarative statement like “God is infinite,” when all we see each day are finite beings; we don’t call any of them God (unless we can see in faith the presence of God in the Eucharist)?

It may be that I just don’t get it, but I am trying to argue that if there is to be nothing or non-being at all, which would serve for the premise that God created out of nothing, it must first be willed by that same infinite God not to possess that “area.” Or God would create out of His infinite self (which we won’t call nothing). I can’t wrap my brain around how this choosing not to possess that “area,” would not be a self-limitation. It is not that God couldn’t choose to possess it or repossess it (not limiting his power), but that he chose not to. I am saying that God was eternally infinite and unlimited until He chose to create in love, where he made a self gift, giving to others what he once possessed (self-limitation), and that should He choose he can take that gift back and resume the infinite state. I don’t see how this diminishes God.

Like I said, I’ll sleep on it, give it some thought, and reply to the particular points generously given above. I am grateful for them, many of which make a lot of sense.

Thanks,
Matt
 
I would like to thank those who have posted replies above. I will reply to them in the near future. However, it may be a good point to listen and absorb a bit before simply rambling on with my theories.

What I am content to say in Faith I challenge in reason because for me there is a gap. I am not content with the logical argument of an infinite God who created other beings yet is some how not separate from them at all. How is it that a God who “permeates” all things is somehow distinct from all things. How is it that the Father is a Spiritual Being and is not material, yet we say he is unlimited… wouldn’t he be limited from the material realm?
FM:

Think it through. It is “materiality,” i.e., “matter,” that limits. It is “matter” that has boundaries, parameters and limited durations. The inclusion of such things in a “Limitless” Being would be the factor that limits that being. Furthermore, that which is Infinite cannot consist as or of parts. Matter only exists as parts.
“Of Course Not” my friends would say… Jesus was God incarnate or in material form, but he was limited in that material form (even if he is unlimited in his spiritual form).
But, Christ was one aspect of Triune God. God creates and controls matter and materiality. But, as we know, there is another aspect of materiality that is known as “animated” materiality, i.e, matter with life. Matter is not the principle of “life.” Something else is life’s principle.
Is it so hard to see the frustration of conceding to a declarative statement like “God is infinite,” when all we see each day are finite beings; we don’t call any of them God (unless we can see in faith the presence of God in the Eucharist)?
In the Eucharist we see the presence of one aspect of Jesus Christ. We see His Body, Blood and Divinity. This is like us, except that we do not have a soul that possesses His pure Divinity.
It may be that I just don’t get it, but I am trying to argue that if there is to be nothing or non-being at all, which would serve for the premise that God created out of nothing, it must first be willed by that same infinite God not to possess that “area.”
That is a common question - and a good one, in my opinion. We try to know what Triune God is, and how He can be rendered intelligible. We may not yet have all of the pieces to that puzzle, but, we’re striving to. You might want to look at the thread entitled, “Space.” It needs to be read from its beginning. and, please do (name removed by moderator)ut your questions and concerns.
Or God would create out of His infinite self (which we won’t call nothing).
But, the Catholic Church has never said that God “creates out of nothing.” It has said, for centuries, that God creates where there was nothing before. “Creation” is a kind of “cause.” But, unlike “causes,” it needs there be no prior existing stuff from which to fashion the results of creation. All other causes require the presupposition of stuff - from which new stuff is compiled.
I can’t wrap my brain around how this choosing not to possess that “area,” would not be a self-limitation.
I don’t know the answer to your dilemma, but, I do not believe that God’s Spiritual substance is enjoined from permeating matter’s material substance. Remember, there’s lots of “space” inside of matter’s constituents, so, it need not need be a “bubble.” There are a couple theoreticians, in these fora, that may provide some conjectures of significant weight. One or two of them might produce books on the subject.
It is not that God couldn’t choose to possess it or repossess it (not limiting his power), but that he chose not to. I am saying that God was eternally infinite and unlimited until He chose to create in love, where he made a self gift, giving to others what he once possessed (self-limitation), and that should He choose he can take that gift back and resume the infinite state. I don’t see how this diminishes God.
If that were the case, could one reasonably ask, “Where does God live?” (Meaning, “reside.”) There are many things that are mysteries. This may forever remain a mystery, or, men (and women) may come upon revelations that help us make Him more intelligible to us.
Like I said, I’ll sleep on it, give it some thought, and reply to the particular points generously given above. I am grateful for them, many of which make a lot of sense.
Thanks,
Matt
Sleep well, Sir.

God bless,
jd
 
To Anthony:
Thanks for your time and response, here are my responses to your arguments.

I agree that God’s nature is pure existence, he is perfect simple being. I agree that his nature is existence itself, all other things share in that being. I agree we are in his realm. However what does it mean to “build upon God”? If God is Omnipresent and unlimited then where should God build upon himself? What draws the distinction between God and another being vs. just more of God? If he “exercises said power within and of himself” he must create the space and time to do so. This was the point of the whole article. It is not to deny any of these things, but rather to understand that God “Emptied Himself…” so that he could create so that we could love. It is by no means meant to disprove Aquinas, but rather to improve the logic (albeit success is not presumed). However, when we read the Bible the very first line is “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” The very first creation was space… It is not a God building up on himself that I am arguing. I am arguing that he is the fullness of unlimited being and that His first Divine Move was to limit Himself in love for the sake of creation.

The highest being is already magnified, nothing could increase God, not even His own actions. The only way to go is down from almighty.

Agreed… but willing yourself into a form is to set limits upon yourself. Thus the self-limited God made us in his own image.

If the first move was formative, it makes my point. It limits the limitless. This is not a bad thing because God who willingly limits himself has the power to become again unlimited. Jesus said, “No one can take my life from me, I lay it down willingly and I can take it up again.” Let’s not be afraid of God who chose to be weak for the sake of love.
Remeber to exist we must’ve been non-existant. And both the existing and non-existing are in suffering. Can’t remember who said that but it’s not Aquainus.
 
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