A Lesson for Traditionalists on Communion in the hand

[I_Believe]

Ok, so if a particle, or drop, is so small it can’t be seen, the Body and Blood does not remain. I think it’s safe to say the Angelic Doctor’s opinion will hold more weight than mine.

That still leaves the particles and drops that can be seen.

Let me explain this again (although I’d have thought it was clear enough the first time).

Explain what ? I said I accepted the opinion of St Thomas Aquinas. He is saying that once a particle is so small as to not be seen as a piece of bread, then the Real Presence is not there.

Again, my extreme has been refuted by the opinion of the Angelic Doctor. I’m going to accept it.

Now, what about the particles that are large enough to be seen by the naked eye ? The ones brushed off the Paten into the cup ? You’ll have to provide me with a document from the Church, not a theological opinion, to convince me that a particle large enough to see, even if a tad larger than a grain of salt, doesn’t contain the Real Presence.

Everyone seems to be dodging the issue of dropped Hosts and the larger than microscopic particles.

The fact is, CITH increases the chance of a mishap. It increases the chance of the loss of a particle large enough to contain the body and blood of Christ.

Everyone also ignores the fact that the conditions of the indult are not met in far too many parishes.

If we are truly concerned with doing our best to prevent mishaps, COTT is the answer.

Allowing an EMHC to carry the Hosts out of the Sanctuary and distribute the Hosts into the hands of the faithful without using a Paten is careless.

 

[PaulAndrew83]

Ok, so if a particle, or drop, is so small it can’t be seen, the Body and Blood does not remain. I think it’s safe to say the Angelic Doctor’s opinion will hold more weight than mine.

That still leaves the particles and drops that can be seen.

One has to be very careful tho to now allow subjectivity into the discussion.

Padre Pio had a reputation for seeing particles that nobody else could see on the paten.

If a fighter Pilot can see the particles and you cannot, this will mean that the accidents are still there and hence Our Lord is too. That is the reason all of the Church practises should continue to be practiced.

Paul

 

[Deblette]

I believe that receiving communion in the hand is one reason why there is an apparent decrease in the respect for the Blessed Sacrament. Eucharistic Ministers is another. Disbelief in the True Presence jumps in there too.

I am not worthy to even receive the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is only by his Grace that I am made worthy. I will never be worthy of handling the Blessed Sacrament. That is what my heart tells me. Is that from me or from God? I don’t know. I only know that I cannot receive it in my hand nor will I receive it from anyone other than the hands that consecrate the host. That is just me. I am a traditionalist, orthodox, conservative, whatever you want to call it. I want to be kneeling when I receive also so bring back the kneelers.

 

[OhMalley]

Conditions. The indult specifies conditions. Conditions that if met, address the issue of careless and irreverent handling of Hosts. Have you read the entire thread ? Can you defend the liberty taken by some clergy to ignore the conditions of the indult ?

I can’t rant about clergy ignoring these conditions, but clergy don’t have to answer for ignoring them ?

Do you deny Hosts are dropped ? If not, do you deny that CITH increases the chance of them being dropped ?

The Church does not approve of inferior practices. That’s why the conditions are there. But the world is a big place. If no one complains about the fact that the conditions of the indult are not being met, then what is the use of the indult to start with ? How is Rome to know the conditions are not being met if no one speaks of it ?

I have read what the Church allows and under what conditions. Communion on tongue is not inherently better than communion in hand, indult or no indult. Some here are trying to suggest it is and it’s not. It’s merely their personal preference.

Most hosts I have seen dropped happened when someone was receiving on the tongue. Unlike you I will not then say that means it’s universal across the Church. I will say that you have no proof (except perhaps personal anecdotal experiences like my own) “that CITH increases the chance of them being dropped.”

 

[bear06]

I have read what the Church allows and under what conditions. Communion on tongue is not inherently better than communion in hand, indult or no indult. Some here are trying to suggest it is and it’s not. It’s merely their personal preference.

Most hosts I have seen dropped happened when someone was receiving on the tongue. Unlike you I will not then say that means it’s universal across the Church. I will say that you have no proof (except perhaps personal anecdotal experiences like my own) “that CITH increases the chance of them being dropped.”

I agree that you can abuse or drop the Host either way. That said, that’s irrelavent. That’s not necessarily the reason it is better. Here’s an interesting article on the Pope’s position on reception on the tongue (while kneeling to boot).

catholicity.com/commentary/landry/00663.html

Msgr. Marini added, however, that Benedict’s purpose went beyond merely reminding Catholics that reception of the Eucharist on the tongue, rather than on the hand, is the Church’s normative and preferred way. He said that receiving Communion on the tongue “better highlights the truth of the real presence in the Eucharist, helps the devotion of the faithful, and introduces more easily the sense of mystery — aspects which, in our times, pastorally-speaking, it is urgent to highlight and recover.”

The fact that 3 of the last 4 popes have expressed concern over reception of Communion in the hand (John Paul I didn’t get much of a chance to express any opinions) should make people take pause.

 

[I_Believe]

I will say that you have no proof (except perhaps personal anecdotal experiences like my own) “that CITH increases the chance of them being dropped.”

Hmm, I don’t know if it will “prove” anything, but I’ll start a new thread with a poll.

 

[I_Believe]

I agree that you can abuse or drop the Host either way. That said, that’s irrelavent. That’s not necessarily the reason it is better. Here’s an interesting article on the Pope’s position on reception on the tongue (while kneeling to boot).

catholicity.com/commentary/landry/00663.html

The fact that 3 of the last 4 popes have expressed concern over reception of Communion in the hand (John Paul I didn’t get much of a chance to express any opinions) should make people take pause.

 

[Aramis]

How about a lesson for liberals.

Rule 1: Receive on the tongue, thereby eliminating any concern for losing precious particles of the Host due to needless handling of the Host.

Rule 2: Follow rule 1.

I’ve found particles in my beard on two occasions. Communion on the tongue is not a guarantee of no particles falling.

 

[paperwight]

Explain what ? I said I accepted the opinion of St Thomas Aquinas. He is saying that once a particle is so small as to not be seen as a piece of bread, then the Real Presence is not there.

I wanted to explain where the fragments that are sometimes seen might have come from.
You were fearful that they were due to the Host breaking or crumbling or leaving a residue on the communicant’s hands during/after Holy Communion.
I was trying to explain that these fragments most likely came from the bags that altar-breads were delivered in, not from the Hosts themselves at that stage i.e. during Holy Communion.

 

[bear06]

I’ve found particles in my beard on two occasions. Communion on the tongue is not a guarantee of no particles falling.

No, it doesn’t. That said, that is why a patent is supposed to be used when receiving Communion on the Tongue. I don’t think anyone could argue that the least chance of crumbs is not to transfer from hand to hand but to place from one hand onto the tongue with a patent to catch any crumbs (or even the whole Host) if it falls. The altar boys were never there just for show. They have actual jobs to do and that is one of them.

I receive at a church that does Communion on the tongue. The priest is very careful to keep his fingers over the ciborium after he has placed the Host on the tongue so that any crumbs that may be on his fingers will fall into it. We also have a an altar boy with patent to catch crumbs. If all else fails, we have a rail cloth to catch the rest.

Let’s compare that to Communion in the hand. The priest puts the Host into a hand that usually has not patent under it. He has nobody there trying to catch crumbs because altar servers don’t perform that function in most churches. The person then takes the Host our of their own hands and puts it into their mouths - again with no patent and no rail cloth.

BTW, I don’t attend the EF on a regular basis. This is a OF Mass.

 

[bear06]

I wanted to explain where the fragments that are sometimes seen might have come from.
You were fearful that they were due to the Host breaking or crumbling or leaving a residue on the communicant’s hands during/after Holy Communion.
I was trying to explain that these fragments most likely came from the bags that altar-breads were delivered in, not from the Hosts themselves at that stage i.e. during Holy Communion.

Just a little note. I don’t believe they come in bags. Everytime I’ve seen a priest take wafers out of a container, it’s been a tube. I think they’re probably shipped stacked in some manner because there’d be too much breakage otherwise.

 

[paperwight]

Just a little note. I don’t believe they come in bags. Everytime I’ve seen a priest take wafers out of a container, it’s been a tube. I think they’re probably shipped stacked in some manner because there’d be too much breakage otherwise.

Well, I suppose it would depend on the supplier, Ours are from a convent and definitely come in plastic bags of a thousand. The small ones, that is. The priest’s altar-breads are packed stacked, wrapped in tissue, but in the box with the others.
I wouldn’t think it was possible to stack the small ones, Athough if they were in a cardboard tube.that would be better, I agree, even if they were loose in the tube.

 

[bear06]

Well, I suppose it would depend on the supplier, Ours are from a convent and definitely come in plastic bags of a thousand. The small ones, that is. The priest’s altar-breads are packed stacked, wrapped in tissue, but in the box with the others.
I wouldn’t think it was possible to stack the small ones, Athough if they were in a cardboard tube.that would be better, I agree, even if they were loose in the tube.

Intersting. Thanks for the info. Well, I’d suppose that if their were crumbs with the wafers to be consecrated than they would also be consecrated.