A Loving God and the Brutality of Man

  • Thread starter Thread starter lakotak
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

lakotak

Guest
There is something that really disturbs me and I thought I would share it and perhaps get the insights of others here that might help me work through this. Perhaps some of you have had this question, if so, how did or do you find a solve to it.

My problem is how could a loving God create a being (man) that has such propensity to the depth of brutality as is being seen in the world. I understand about free will, this is not my issue. I understand that I can have the same exercise of free will to kill a person as to kill a fly. It is the fact that a God that professes such love could create a creature and give, allow that creature to have such a depth of brutality towards another one of those beings really disturbs and confuses me. I guess my issue is not the exercise of free will, but the depths of brutality that is allowed or whatever to be exercised upon another being as a result of that free will. It is like there is no limitations of depth to which God will not allow his creatures to brutalize each other. As an example to try to be clear on what I am trying to say. I can exercise my free will to shoot someone in the head and kill them, but why would I not have a limitation to burning them alive. I have still exercised my free will; the person still dies, but it is the level of brutality that I have been given, allowed to go to in order to see that that person dies, but in such a terrible manner.

Thanks, for any insights.
 
To put it simply, you can’t put limitations on free will and still have it be free will.

God desires for us to love him as deeply as we are able to, without limits. The more we open ourselves to Him the more he will fill us with his love. He is willing to do this to a literally-infinite degree.

In order for us to have the capacity to accept him infinitely, it also becomes necessary for us to be capable of rejecting him infinitely. You cannot put limitations on free will in either direction and still call it free. Unfortunately, this means that people can infinitely reject God and do things that oppose him, up to and including the things you mention.
 
It is an argument that the presenter and actor Stephen Fry has recently made in an interview. It is difficult to find fault with it. This is a world of misery, and, I don’t know about you, but if I was all-knowing and could see the future consequences of free will I simply would not have allowed it in my created world. Man is clearly incapable of living peacefully, and therefore his will should be restricted. There is nothing wrong with that, it already happens on a small scale with the need to work to pay bills etc.
It is like there is no limitations of depth to which God will not allow his creatures to brutalize each other
Click to expand...
It is difficult to disagree with this statement. Look at Auschwitz. Look at the suffering that Mengele inflicted on his ‘patients’ for his sick tests. Where was this marvellous heavenly army when all this misery was occurring? Nowhere. They were passive observers, nothing more. It was left up to humans to stop it. Again.
God desires for us to love him as deeply as we are able to, without limits. The more we open ourselves to Him the more he will fill us with his love. He is willing to do this to a literally-infinite degree
Click to expand...
That is simply not the case. It is mere wishful-thinking.

Best wishes,
Padster
 
Padster said:
That is simply not the case. It is mere wishful-thinking.
Click to expand...
Claiming that I’m wrong doesn’t mean that I am wrong. Do you have any backing for your assertion beyond personal opinion?

Another question:

How would you keep free will intact while simultaneously preventing a person from choosing evil? I would like for you to outline exactly how that would work.
 
Padster said:
It is an argument that the presenter and actor Stephen Fry has recently made in an interview. It is difficult to find fault with it. This is a world of misery, and, I don’t know about you, but if I was all-knowing and could see the future consequences of free will I simply would not have allowed it in my created world. Man is clearly incapable of living peacefully, and therefore his will should be restricted. There is nothing wrong with that, it already happens on a small scale with the need to work to pay bills etc.

It is difficult to disagree with this statement. Look at Auschwitz. Look at the suffering that Mengele inflicted on his ‘patients’ for his sick tests. Where was this marvellous heavenly army when all this misery was occurring? Nowhere. They were passive observers, nothing more. It was left up to humans to stop it. Again.

Benotagoat

Well the old vedic religion of India which was (is monotheist) believe as I do, that God created us at the beginning,when the fall came,we fell down to the lowest level of life,and work our way back up again ,which accounts for ‘evolution’ guided by God .
We have all done terrible things in the past ,and are unable to save ourselves from the ‘abyss’,and we know that is what Jesus came to do, for anyone who accepts His gift of redemption through grace and follow Him.
I have proof of many things which are not allowed among christians ,who are in denial
since the 6 th century on this subject.

at is simply not the case. It is mere wishful-thinking.

Best wishes,
Padster
Click to expand...
 
Claiming that I’m wrong doesn’t mean that I am wrong. Do you have any backing for your assertion beyond personal opinion?
Click to expand...
It is as Mr Fry states. We are dealing with a capricious God. He does His or It’s own thing. There is most definitely a Supreme Being or Cosmic Force behind the universe, but it is a force like Nature, indifferent to the feelings of human beings. I have begged this God to give me some understanding of what I am going through. He is silent on the subject. This is why many people who have these experiences end up on medication or on a psych ward or turn to drink. They become isolated. The Supreme Being chooses not to divulge any information that may help them come to an understanding, and the world is bemused and frightened by them. Now, do you call that love, because I don’t.
How would you keep free will intact while simultaneously preventing a person from choosing evil? I would like for you to outline exactly how that would work.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t keep it intact. I would take it away from Man because he has comprehensively proved he is undeserving of such a privilege.

Best wishes,
Padster
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Claiming that I’m wrong doesn’t mean that I am wrong. Do you have any backing for your assertion beyond personal opinion?

Another question:

**How would you keep free will intact while simultaneously preventing a person from choosing evil? ** I would like for you to outline exactly how that would work.
Click to expand...
I plan to kill a person and carry that plan out. I shoot the person. I have chosen in free will to kill this person and I have exercised my free will and the person is dead. I have sinned against God and rejected him, but I have not taken the lowest level of murder to cause this person to suffer terribly before they die. God limits what the devil can do to a person and restrains him otherwise we would all be wiped out. Why would he not want to restrain the depth to which we can brutalize each other?
 
Padster said:
It is as Mr Fry states. We are dealing with a capricious God. He does His or It’s own thing. There is most definitely a Supreme Being or Cosmic Force behind the universe, but it is a force like Nature, indifferent to the feelings of human beings. I have begged this God to give me some understanding of what I am going through. He is silent on the subject. This is why many people who have these experiences end up on medication or on a psych ward or turn to drink. They become isolated. The Supreme Being chooses not to divulge any information that may help them come to an understanding, and the world is bemused and frightened by them. Now, do you call that love, because I don’t.
Click to expand...
So, because you’re not satisfied with the answer, God doesn’t care. Because you don’t accept the proofs he’s provided, he obviously hasn’t provided any.

Do you realize how conceited you are being? This is -exactly- what today’s Gospel is about. Christ performed miracles for the people of his hometown, but they weren’t satisfied. They didn’t accept his proof on His terms, and so he left them to their disbelief.
I wouldn’t keep it intact. I would take it away from Man because he has comprehensively proved he is undeserving of such a privilege.
Click to expand...
Best wishes,
Padster
Click to expand...
So, you’re saying that because some people in history have chosen to abuse their free will, I shouldn’t be allowed to exercise mine?
 
lakotak said:
I plan to kill a person and carry that plan out. I shoot the person. I have chosen in free will to kill this person and I have exercised my free will and the person is dead. I have sinned against God and rejected him, but I have not taken the lowest level of murder to cause this person to suffer terribly before they die. God limits what the devil can do to a person and restrains him otherwise we would all be wiped out. Why would he not want to restrain the depth to which we can brutalize each other?
Click to expand...
Because -any- restraint prevents the exercise of free will. If I cannot chose to commit a heinous act, then I do not legitimately have the freedom of choice. God does not -want- us to do this, but his desire for us to freely chose Him outweighs the reality of evil.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Because -any- restraint prevents the exercise of free will. If I cannot chose to commit a heinous act, then I do not legitimately have the freedom of choice. God does not -want- us to do this, but his desire for us to freely chose Him outweighs the reality of evil.
Click to expand...
This does send a chill down the spine to understand that man can do anything to another that he wants and the only aspect that God cares about is free will. A sobering thought.
 
40.png
lakotak:
This does send a chill down the spine to understand that man can do anything to another that he wants and the only aspect that God cares about is free will. A sobering thought.

It’s not that God only cares about free will. I am addressing a single instance relating to your question. It’s a hugely complex issue, and you seem to be looking for soundbite answers, which just won’t cover the issue properly.

God cares about our choices, and he desired the best for us, but he’s not going to force us to chose Him, that’s not how he works. He didn’t even do that with the angels, even though they had complete knowledge of Him. God IS Love. He created us to love us, and for us to love him, and love can only be given if it’s given freely. To remove our free will and ability to chose to love Him would entirely defeat our purpose for existing. He wants us to chose Him, but in order for us to actually be able to chose him, it’s necessary that we also be able to chose against him. If an alternative doesn’t exist, it’s not a choice.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
It’s not that God only cares about free will. I am addressing a single instance relating to your question. It’s a hugely complex issue, and you seem to be looking for soundbite answers, which just won’t cover the issue properly.

God cares about our choices, and he desired the best for us, but he’s not going to force us to chose Him, that’s not how he works. He didn’t even do that with the angels, even though they had complete knowledge of Him. God IS Love. He created us to love us, and for us to love him, and love can only be given if it’s given freely. To remove our free will and ability to chose to love Him would entirely defeat our purpose for existing. He wants us to chose Him, but in order for us to actually be able to chose him, it’s necessary that we also be able to chose against him. If an alternative doesn’t exist, it’s not a choice.
Click to expand...
I understand it is quite a complex issue. However. I think of it from the victim’s point of view. If I know that I am going to be killed in whatever manner, then, this leads me to believe that God only care about the free choice that my murderer is making and my death is second to this person’s free will. All you have said I am sure is true, but the reality of the fact is still sobering.
 
lakotak said:
I understand it is quite a complex issue. However. I think of it from the victim’s point of view. If I know that I am going to be killed in whatever manner, then, this leads me to believe that God only care about the free choice that my murderer is making and my death is second to this person’s free will. All you have said I am sure is true, but the reality of the fact is still sobering.
Click to expand...
God also cares about your free will. Ultimately, it’s the most important part of the whole equation. If you’ve chosen to live for Him, then you really have very little to worry about from physical death. If, on the other hand, you have chosen to live against him, as your attacker has, then you have a great deal to fear. In the end, the ultimate choice is still yours to make, and you attacker has no affect on it whatsoever.
 
A post got lost in the previous one .
The Eastern religions have the answer to this problem ;God created us in harmony with all of His creation,and in giving us free will He allowed for movement in this .When Adam and Eve rebelled it meant that humanity lost their position in a beautiful world ,and in falling to earth, has had to climb his way back from the very lowest point, of even being a ‘beast’.

God guides our evolution back up to Him,but we can never make it ,even the best cannot ,on their own terms as all have done terrible things ,so He had to come down to rescue us Himself .He agrees to wipe out our past ‘karma’,'grace) if we will follow Him,and He gave the Apostles and the Church the task of organising our final ‘evolution’ .

We are not new souls when we are born ,but have existed before and have different levels of Relationship with God and His creatures ; different levels of understanding .

So we have a Just and Loving God who has rescued us from our past wrongdoings.
That is that all of humanity suffered the Fall ,but some did not actively take part, and it is these people who became the ones whom God could trust to lead us back to Him (the holy people in the bible) .
Since we fell, God has planned how to get us back to our original state as 'beings ’ worthy of paradise .Getting enough souls simultaneously raised up with enough Light of God to allow the ‘revelation’ of our original high state as beings who were created with the knowledge of science and technology that we have now.We lost alll that when the rebellion took place
 
The point of this life is to see ‘what you are’, so to speak. There is a difference between someone who thinks about hurting his brother & stops before going through with it, & someone who actually goes through with it. God gives us every opportunity to see how far we will go, in either good or evil. This,life is a testing ground, & no one gets away with anything.

God wants to see how bad or good one can really be.
We’re given the opportunity to ‘express ourselves’ etc. Its like Jesus criticising the pharisees for putting loads onto people’s backs that are too heavy for them, & not lifting a finger to help: because their hearts were hard. God gives/allows people to have power to see what they will do with it. Do they use it mercifully, or do they become harsh with it? If they see their brother hurt, are they remorseful or do they not care? It is on these that we afe being assessed! Yet the devil would have you believe you’re being assessed by how much $$ you have.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
It’s not that God only cares about free will. I am addressing a single instance relating to your question. It’s a hugely complex issue, and you seem to be looking for soundbite answers, which just won’t cover the issue properly.

God cares about our choices, and he desired the best for us, but he’s not going to force us to chose Him, that’s not how he works. He didn’t even do that with the angels, even though they had complete knowledge of Him. God IS Love. He created us to love us, and for us to love him, and love can only be given if it’s given freely. To remove our free will and ability to chose to love Him would entirely defeat our purpose for existing. He wants us to chose Him, but in order for us to actually be able to chose him, it’s necessary that we also be able to chose against him. If an alternative doesn’t exist, it’s not a choice.
Click to expand...
Absolutely.👍
 
I take back my remarks. You are correct. We want everything on our terms and on demand.

Best wishes,
Padster
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top