A Modern Catholic State?

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If those who governed were appointed by the Pope, rather than simply born to power, at least that would ensure rule by Church principles rather than the whims of a family.

ICXC NIKA.
Historically, the Papal States had less than a stellar record. And so did the Holy Roman Empire. As Voltaire said, “It’s not holy, nor is it Roman, nor is it an Empire.”

The province of religion is belief and ethics, not governance.
 
Historically, the Papal States had less than a stellar record. And so did the Holy Roman Empire. As Voltaire said, “It’s not holy, nor is it Roman, nor is it an Empire.”

The province of religion is belief and ethics, not governance.
Thank you.

I prefer my Church to administer the sacraments and preach the Gospel, not build roads, deliver mail and maintain a fleet of nuclear submarines.

-Tim-
 
It was not the finest hour, but it is also greatly misunderstood and was used by enemies of Spain and the Catholic Church (namely England) as a way spread hate against Spain and the Church.
Given your explanation of the Spanish situation, I’d have thought that you’d have been able to see the situation for Catholics in England after “Regnans in Excelsis” as a similar sort of phenomenon.

Or is your point that everybody should have submitted to the greatly misunderstood Spanish?
 
Given your explanation of the Spanish situation, I’d have thought that you’d have been able to see the situation for Catholics in England after “Regnans in Excelsis” as a similar sort of phenomenon.

Or is your point that everybody should have submitted to the greatly misunderstood Spanish?
The situation surrounding Regnans in Excelsis was a mess, partly because Pope Leo X declared King Henry VIII the “Defender of the Faith” before King Henry VIII separated England from Rome. Catherine of Aragon (Henry’s first wife) was also a “Defender of the Faith” in her own right, which was passed down to their daughter Mary I, when she became queen.

But mainly, it became a mess due to the selfish policies of King Henry VIII & his mistreatment of his daughters. Because he wanted a son so bad, he divorced wives and executed others. He also started to imprison and/or execute Catholic noblemen who were trying to persuade him to reunite with Rome.

King Henry’s treatment of Catherine of Aragon & Catholics greatly disturbed their daughter, Mary, who remained a devout Catholic and was often sick. She was not allowed to visit her mother and Henry declared Mary illegitimate for many years.

When Queen Mary I became queen, she vowed to allow religious tolerance and allow both Catholic and Protestants to worship as they pleased. She restored communion between the Church of England with Rome after many consolations with the protestants.

However, after she had a false pregnancy, she fell into depression and believed that God was punishing her for being nice to heretics. So she revived the Heresy Acts which were put into place by King Richard II, King Henry IV, and King Henry V (which were repealed by King Henry VIII & King Edward VI). Under that law, she then proceeded to force protestants to convert to be executed. Now known as Bloody Mary by the protestants, opposition to her and Rome grew. Even people who were indifferent began to hate the Church due to Mary’s actions.

After Mary died, Parliament’s first action was to end communion with Rome and establish Elizabeth as head of the Church of England. But Elizabeth didn’t enact that law until 1570, partly because of influence from her cousin Mary Queen of Scots, Philip, Mary I’s widower, and because she had no problem with private Catholic worship.

However, when she finally enacted the law in 1570, that triggered official action from Rome. From Rome’s point of view, Mary, Queen of Scots was the proper heir to Mary I, not Elizabeth, who was an illegitimate child. So when Elizabeth ended communion with Rome (after Mary I restored it) AND when the Vatican believed that northern rebels had been successful, the Vatican issued Regnans in Excelsis because the “Defender of the Faith” was NOT defending the faith.

The Pope’s ill-advised actions further infuriated Parliament, and they pushed for further actions against Catholics (which Elizabeth tried to mitigate) then started forcing Catholics to convert, die or leave England because she wanted one religion in England (and to settle the religious fighting among the nobles). All this lead to a greater push to for a coup to place Mary Queen of Scots on the thrown from English Catholics and from the Northern English and Scots. This then made it treason to attempt to convert someone to the Catholic faith.

But the truth is that ALL of this was started by and for the most part moved forward by secular interests and NOT purely religious interests.

God Bless.
 
The situation surrounding Regnans in Excelsis was a mess,
I know that some people may find your Catholic-perspective narratives interesting but, for some of us, it was what we did at school because we went to school in England and it was on the syllabus. Some of us, being Jews - Jews being excluded from England at the time as well - weren’t too bothered with the Catholic/Protestant stuff, of course. 🙂

I’m afraid that your history of later Tudor England didn’t answer my question though which was whether, having argued for what was done in Spain, you agreed that Elizabeth’s policy to Catholics after 1570 was just the same thing really?
 
I am a very fervent monarchist, but I am a Protestant one, so civil penalties for heresy do not sit well with me. My ideal monarchy is an Anglican one, of course, but I’d be willing to live in a Catholic one as long as His Majesty keeps his nose out of my worship.
 
Some here are actually of a royal bloodline. I appreciate the comments in defense of the Spanish Crown. The Crown did have right to make the rules and I believe the actions taken were just as the actions were for the preservation of the nation. Without regard, sin is to blame for the crumbling of all these great nations (including our Old Pre-Jesus Nation of Israel–which we all hold so dear).
 
Let me correct myself. I can’t justify an action solely because it is for the preservation of a nation. Civil liberty is very important to me; however, it is one of those grey areas. But not in this country of the United States, civil liberties can’t legitimately be trampled upon for the sake of union.

But, preservation of Truth is important. In this nation, it must be done by the people through their representative, in the Monarchies it must be done by the Monarch. That said, nations are nations, the Church will continue with the Truth.
 
I know that some people may find your Catholic-perspective narratives interesting but, for some of us, it was what we did at school because we went to school in England and it was on the syllabus. Some of us, being Jews - Jews being excluded from England at the time as well - weren’t too bothered with the Catholic/Protestant stuff, of course. 🙂

I’m afraid that your history of later Tudor England didn’t answer my question though which was whether, having argued for what was done in Spain, you agreed that Elizabeth’s policy to Catholics after 1570 was just the same thing really?
I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand what you are asking. I re-read the question from the previous post, but I’m not 100% I follow you.

However, I never claimed that I was in favor of how the Spanish handled the situation. I think they made mistakes.

My original point was that it was trying to state is that it was the Spanish Crown, not the Catholic Church, that did those things. However, in contrast, when Queen Elizabeth started persecuting Catholics, she was not just the Crown of England, but also the Head of the Anglican Church.

The situation in England was similar to the situation in Spain. However, a fundamental difference is that the Queen Elizabeth I was the head of the Church of England while the King of Spain was not the head of the Church in Spain.

Please forgive me if I’m still not answering your question.

God Bless
 
One of the best books I’ve ever read on the influence of the Catholic Faith on civilization is Hilaire Belloc’s Europe and the Faith, after which comes Belloc’s The Servile State.

The fact is that we live in a Plutocracy and our votes count for nothing. Besides, in a stable distributist society, governed by just laws, there wouldn’t be the need to constantly be tweaking this law or that. People would just live their lives.
But we do live in a society that’s more distributist than it is anything else. What are the main tenets of distributism as initially conceived? Basically they coincided with Rerum Novarum, which advocated a system (without detail) which facilitated ordinary people being able to acquire productive, inheritable assets. That’s what we have right now. And, I submit, most of our laws are pretty just.

Never did Pope Leo XIII advocate “redistributionist” policies, in terms of forced redistribution of assets; something many think “distributism” is. He did, certainly, condemn excess consumerism which, I maintain, is the reason why most people do not acquire any significant quantity of productive, inheritable assets.

Distributism, properly speaking, is as much “micro” as it is “macro”, and perhaps greatly more so.

Returning to topic so I won’t get sanctioned, I would be leery of a formal Catholic State. Even if governing persons were appointed by the Pope, what’s to say terrible mistakes in judgment (or lack of knowledge) couldn’t have some bad results? I think we know there hae been some bishops whose appointments were extremely unfortunate. Why would we assume similar errors couldn’t be made with secular rulers?

I grew up in the Bible Belt and still live in it. Catholics are a small minority here, and always have been. At one time, the KKK was big in this area. And even so, Catholics, through work, attentiveness and education, thrived. The KKK is all but gone now; just a bunch of nuts who overlap in membership with survivalists and crazies of other sorts. I’m not looking for a Protestant state, but I think I am comfortable with a state (at least where I live) that is really run by the electorate.
 
The idea of a Catholic monarchy is a silly pipe dream in this day and age. Back when they existed people were no more moral than nowadays. Catholic monarchies were often corrupt and unjust. If you want one, go to Monaco. it’s a police state populated largely by tax evaders, money launderers, and the shady rich. If that’s your idea of Christendom, then it’s time to do some rethinking.

Why try to create a Catholic autocracy? God doesn’t coerce people to follow his laws, so neither should we expect society to enforce standards of religion and morality - it DOESN’T work. Holiness comes from within and not from the civil authorities above us. We are blessed and challenged to live in a pagan world that is increasingly hostile to the true faith. This was the lot of the Church during the first 3 centuries after Jesus ascended into heaven and look how it grew and spread despite the persecution. We must act as the early Christians acted, with unity, charity for all, and great evangelical zeal. To complain that the world is not up to par, is ridiculous. It’s always been a crooked place hostile to the faith. We are called to be salt and leaven in the midst of an inhospitable environment. We love God best by responding to this challenge rather than living on silly pipe dreams about a Catholic monarchy.
 
There are several hysterical denunciations of democracy by Popes who feared the loss of the papal states or that their own ox would be gored. Many of the earliest forays into democracy in Europe were accompanied by vicious hatred of the Church and her clergy. Priests and consecrated religious were murdered. Church property was confiscated. I can see the reason for the initial hostility. But the best form of government has proven to be one which does not interfere with the exercise of religion. That separation was a good thing.
 
The idea of a Catholic monarchy is a silly pipe dream in this day and age. Back when they existed people were no more moral than nowadays. Catholic monarchies were often corrupt and unjust. If you want one, go to Monaco. it’s a police state populated largely by tax evaders, money launderers, and the shady rich. If that’s your idea of Christendom, then it’s time to do some rethinking.
I’ve always thought the place quite pleasant really and not that much more expensive than, say, Villefranche or Beaulieu.
 
There are several hysterical denunciations of democracy by Popes who feared the loss of the papal states or that their own ox would be gored. Many of the earliest forays into democracy in Europe were accompanied by vicious hatred of the Church and her clergy. Priests and consecrated religious were murdered. Church property was confiscated. I can see the reason for the initial hostility. But the best form of government has proven to be one which does not interfere with the exercise of religion. That separation was a good thing.
Agreed. How could anyone advocate a theocracy today? Even if one is not interested in the historic record, how could one ignore the current theocracies in the World, and how they tend to violence and oppression?

Regardless of one’s preferred form of legislation, a separation of governance from religion helps to prevent corruption in government, and helps to prevent the oppression of religious and other civil liberties.
 
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