A new challenge to Non-Catholics on the Eucharist

[Subrosa]

Hi everyone.

A week ago there was an active thread poted by MannyFit75 that challenged Protestants to prove some Reformist precepts outside of the Bible: i.e. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Manny stated his position… #1

I state my claim that the Early Church is indeed Catholic Church. It’s Eucharistic Liturgy, which is the center of Catholic worship.

In reply another challange was put forth by BrianH…#4

Well, you will not find that in the Bible. It is the agape meal that Paul says we are to practice to celebrate the last supper. While I am not some kind of zealot, yet, it is plain that someone dropped the meal. Why? Are you saying the early church ate a meal and THEN had some kind of liturgy??
Prove it.

I posted (#12 ) a set of proofs in that thread. I also sent BrianH a PM with the same information and asked him to reply. After a week he has not answered.

So I put it to you, the people of the Apologetics forum to inspect the evidence I have provided Brian and state your own conclusions.

Brian, feel free to add your own conclusion or stay away from the thread. However, I know you are watching.

Below is the information I posted and sent to Brian.

In chapter 10 of the Gospel of Luke we read the story of the 72 sent out by Jesus. While the Gospel states that He sent them to “prepare the way,” it doesn’t actually spell out what they did.

Please read The Gospel of Luke 10:1-12, 17-20, then continue.
Please read the question/challange then read these links. Please take the time to study them.

Admission to the Eucharist in situations of pastoral necessity: Provision between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

When you are done with the first link, then please study the second link.

The Hallowing of Addai and Mari Disciplers of the East

Have fun and learn something!

With the love of Christ -
Subrosa

 

[BrianH]

Hi everyone.

A week ago there was an active thread poted by MannyFit75 that challenged Protestants to prove some Reformist precepts outside of the Bible: i.e. Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Manny stated his position… #1

In reply another challange was put forth by BrianH…#4

I posted (#12 ) a set of proofs in that thread. I also sent BrianH a PM with the same information and asked him to reply. After a week he has not answered.

So I put it to you, the people of the Apologetics forum to inspect the evidence I have provided Brian and state your own conclusions.

Brian, feel free to add your own conclusion or stay away from the thread. However, I know you are watching.

Below is the information I posted and sent to Brian.

In chapter 10 of the Gospel of Luke we read the story of the 72 sent out by Jesus. While the Gospel states that He sent them to “prepare the way,” it doesn’t actually spell out what they did.

Please read The Gospel of Luke 10:1-12, 17-20, then continue.
Please read the question/challange then read these links. Please take the time to study them.

Admission to the Eucharist in situations of pastoral necessity: Provision between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East

When you are done with the first link, then please study the second link.

The Hallowing of Addai and Mari Disciplers of the East

Have fun and learn something!

With the love of Christ -
Subrosa

Well, here is what we can tell. Eastern tradition says that Addai and Mari composed a liturgy.
I do not have much about it in any of my books so I am forced to rely on the Catholic Encyclopedia

This is an Oriental liturgy, sometimes assigned to the Syrian group because it is written in the Syriac tongue; sometimes to the Persian group because it was used in Mesopotamia and Persia. It is known as the normal liturgy of the Nestorians, but probably it had been in use before the rise of the Nestorian heresy. According to tradition, it was composed by Addeus and Maris, who evangelized Edessa, Seleucia-Ctesiphon and the surrounding country. This tradition is based on the narrative contained in the “Doctrine of Addai”, a work generally ascribed to the second half of the third century. The account states that King Abgar the Black, having heard of the wonderful works of Christ, besought Our Lord to come and cure him of a serious malady, but that he obtained only the promise that Our Lord would send one of His disciples, a promise which was fulfilled after the ascension, when Thaddeus (in Syriac, Addai), one of the seventy-two disciples, was sent by St. Thomas to Edessa to cure the King. Addeus and his disciple Maris are said to have converted the King and people of Edessa, to have organized the Christian Church there, and to have composed the liturgy which bears their names. There seem to be no documents earlier than the “Doctrine of Addai” to confirm this tradition.

No one doubts that the liturgy developed but this is not a solid link, not even as good as a Landmark Baptist could do. Nice reading though to be sure.

 

[Subrosa]

Well, here is what we can tell. Eastern tradition says that Addai and Mari composed a liturgy.
I do not have much about it in any of my books so I am forced to rely on the Catholic Encyclopedia

No one doubts that the liturgy developed but this is not a solid link, not even as good as a Landmark Baptist could do. Nice reading though to be sure.

Hi Brian -
Anyhow, I got it to at least the second or third century, by your estimate. But consider this - there are no Apostolic churches that do not have a liturgy, not one. I can do one better and post Justin Martyr’s First Apology which describes the liturgy at about the year 160. That puts it even closer to the Apostolic era. Here goes…
catholic-forum.com/saints/stj29002.htm

Chapter LXVI - Of the Eucharist

And this food is called among us Euxaristi/a [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; "and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood; "and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

Chapter LXVII - Weekly Worship of the Christians

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.

Notice that does Justin mention scripture reading,he “memiors of he Apostles”. He talks about prayer and sacraments. In short, a liturgy. By the way, the Catholic Mass even now resembles this description of worship in Justin Martyr’s time. The two parts are the same -the Liturgy of the Word, followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Can one suppose that all the churches got together in a council to agree to have liturgies? One may be able to, but name the council.

No one made this stuff up on thier own. And I agree with you that when the Apostles were evangelizing, they used scripture - bible thumping as you have said. But the Apostles DID NOT HAVE the New Testament. They preached the Word of God by mouth. Paul’s Letters as well as the others would not come for decades. And they worshipped the way they had always done. Acts 2:46 shows thier worship - prayer in the Temple, then “breaking bread.”

Subrosa

 

[BrianH]

Hi Brian -
Anyhow, I got it to at least the second or third century, by your estimate. But consider this - there are no Apostolic churches that do not have a liturgy, not one. I can do one better and post Justin Martyr’s First Apology which describes the liturgy at about the year 160. That puts it even closer to the Apostolic era. Here goes…
catholic-forum.com/saints/stj29002.htm

Notice that does Justin mention scripture reading,he “memiors of he Apostles”. He talks about prayer and sacraments. In short, a liturgy. By the way, the Catholic Mass even now resembles this description of worship in Justin Martyr’s time. The two parts are the same -the Liturgy of the Word, followed by the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Can one suppose that all the churches got together in a council to agree to have liturgies? One may be able to, but name the council.

No one made this stuff up on thier own. And I agree with you that when the Apostles were evangelizing, they used scripture - bible thumping as you have said. But the Apostles DID NOT HAVE the New Testament. They preached the Word of God by mouth. Paul’s Letters as well as the others would not come for decades. And they worshipped the way they had always done. Acts 2:46 shows thier worship - prayer in the Temple, then “breaking bread.”

Subrosa

You have not said anything that I can really argue with, everything you have said is accurate and your points as well. They did become liturgies, this is true. I still have to contend with what is in the New Testament itself, which describes a meal as it relates to the Last Supper.

 

[Subrosa]

You have not said anything that I can really argue with, everything you have said is accurate and your points as well. They did become liturgies, this is true. I still have to contend with what is in the New Testament itself, which describes a meal as it relates to the Last Supper.

Hi Brian-
What you say is absolutly true. In the first century after Christ’s Ascention Christians shared the Eucharist in a meal setting. They gathered together in people’s homes. What is also clear in the bible is that they did this AFTER synogogue.

The well organized Liturgies that would develope in all of the ancient churches took some time and patience. Consider this - the Christians were severely persecuted until the fourth century. Public worship was a very dangerous thing.

The Hebrew liturgy is what the earliest christians knew when it came to worshipping God. Again I site Acts 2:46. As such it weighed heavily as an influence. More evidence is forthcoming in the New Testament.
From Newadvent.com -

Already in the New Testament – apart from the account of the Last Supper – there are some indexes that point to liturgical forms.

There were already readings from the Sacred Books (1 Timothy 4:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:27; Colossians 4:16), there were sermons (Act., xx, 7), psalms and hymns (1 Corinthians 14:26; Colossians 3:16; Ephesians 5:19).

I Tim., ii, 1-3, implies public liturgical prayers for all classes of people. People lifted up their hands at prayers (1 Timothy 2:8), men with uncovered heads (1 Corinthians 11:4), women covered (ibid., 5). There was a kiss of peace (1 Corinthians 16:20; 2 Corinthians 13:12; 1 Thessalonians V, 26).

There was an offertory of goods for the poor (Romans 15:26; 2 Corinthians 9:13) called by the special name “communion” (koinonia).

The people answered “Amen” after prayers (1 Corinthians 14:16). The word Eucharist has already a technical meaning (ibid.). The famous passage, I Cor., xi, 20-9, gives us the outline of the breaking of bread and thanksgiving (Eucharist) that followed the earlier part of the service.

Heb., xiii, 10 (cf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-21), shows that to the first Christians the table of the Eucharist was an altar. After the consecration prayers followed (Acts 2:42). St. Paul “breaks bread” (= the consecration), then communicates, then preaches (Acts 20:11).

Acts, ii, 42, gives us an idea of the liturgical Synaxis in order: They “persevere in the teaching of the Apostles” (this implies the readings and homilies), “communicate in the breaking of bread” (consecration and communion) and “in prayers”.

So we have already in the New Testament all the essential elements that we find later in the organized liturgies: lessons, psalms, hymns, sermons, prayers, consecration, communion.

It has been thought that there are in the New Testament even actual formulæ used in the liturgy. The Amen is certainly one.

St. Paul’s insistence on the form “For ever and ever, Amen” (eis tous aionas ton aionon amen. – Romans 16:27; Galatians 1:5; 1 Timothy 1:17; cf. Hebrews 13:21; 1 Peter 1:11; 5:11; Revelation 1:6, etc.) seems to argue that it is a liturgical form well known to the Christians whom he addresses, as it was to the Jews.

There are other short hymns (Romans 13:11-2; Ephesians 5:14; 1 Timothy 3:16; 2 Timothy 2:11-3), which may well be liturgical formulæ.

This article points out something very serious - that the elements that make up our present day liturgy had thier seeds planted, watered and nurtured by the Apostles: i.e. - Apostolic Tradition.

Subrosa