A philosophical problem with the Trinity

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The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is three distinct Persons, “one in essence and undivided.” From a philosophical perspective, however, it is logically impossible to have three distinct instances of one essence, or three Persons who are numerically indentical. For reference,* numeric identity* is the relation that obtains each thing and itself, i.e. “Joe Smith is Joe Smith.”

Numeric identity is a problem because, as stated above, it is logically impossible to have two (much less three!) distinct instances of the same essence. Each Person may be exactly identical to the other two, but each is, by neccesity, a distinct entity (or essence). How can the Father, for example, be both the Father and the Son in essence, yet remain somehow distinct from the Son?

Please forgive any inaccuracies or awkardness on my part. I’m relatively new to philosophy, but I really enjoy it. Though I know that the Trinitarian mystery is beyond complete comprehension, I’m curious to know how past philosophers, either eastern or western, have tackled this problem. Thanks for the help!

God bless,

Chris
 
Grace and Peace,

Just wait till you tackle ‘origination’ of the ‘eternal’.

Ugh!
 
Peace to all,

I have had thoughts on this as well. In the Creed “He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” I catch myself and feel bad when I picture the Lord seated at the right had of God. Then I think of two rather than one. I know there is only one God. Only one. I will follow yor post.

Amir
 
Peace to all,

I have had thoughts on this as well. In the Creed “He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” I catch myself and feel bad when I picture the Lord seated at the right had of God. Then I think of two rather than one. I know there is only one God. Only one. I will follow yor post.

Amir
Yes you are right! There is only one God. When you think of the Son seated at the right hand of the Father you should not think of two but of three. Never forget the Holy Spirit. Three persons one God, quite simple to accept but not simple to understand it.
 
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is three distinct Persons, “one in essence and undivided.” From a philosophical perspective, however, it is logically impossible to have three distinct instances of one essence, or three Persons who are numerically indentical. For reference,* numeric identity* is the relation that obtains each thing and itself, i.e. “Joe Smith is Joe Smith.”

Numeric identity is a problem because, as stated above, it is logically impossible to have two (much less three!) distinct instances of the same essence. Each Person may be exactly identical to the other two, but each is, by neccesity, a distinct entity (or essence). How can the Father, for example, be both the Father and the Son in essence, yet remain somehow distinct from the Son?

Please forgive any inaccuracies or awkardness on my part. I’m relatively new to philosophy, but I really enjoy it. Though I know that the Trinitarian mystery is beyond complete comprehension, I’m curious to know how past philosophers, either eastern or western, have tackled this problem. Thanks for the help!

God bless,

Chris
“The Trinity” by Karl Rahner (1970s) and its references can give you a good insight.
 
Because the different Persons, or hypostases, are RELATIVE. That is to say, they are distinct only by the relations between the persons. And these Persons are God.

The Father is God-the-Source-without-Source, the Son is God-as- God-Knows-Himself, and knowing himself then the Holy Spirit is God-as-God-Loves-Himself.

Same substance, from three different “angles” as it were…

Now, with created objects…there is only one hypostasis.

It’s true, there is Me, and Me-as-I-know-myself, and Me-as-I-love-myself…so in *my *mind there are different perspectives.

But the objective determiner of hypostases, or “ontological subjects,” is God. And the subjective perspectives of created objects about themselves or others are seen from God’s perspective as really not distinct. But the Trinity are relations of GOD to GOD…the three perspectives on the one substance really become three seperate hypostases, because it is God who is the determiner of hypostasis. So while our distinctions about ourselves are to God merely subjective…his relational distinctions about himself are objectively real because he is the Absolute.

So in his internal life, God is three persons…even though in his external life he acts as one substance.
 
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity asserts that God is three distinct Persons, “one in essence and undivided.” From a philosophical perspective, however, it is logically impossible to have three distinct instances of one essence, or three Persons who are numerically indentical.
And if the answer is mathematical and not philosophical? We have a propensity to look at God with anthropomorphisms and it’s a wrong direction.
 
Because the different Persons, or hypostases, are RELATIVE. That is to say, they are distinct only by the relations between the persons. And these Persons are God.

The Father is God-the-Source-without-Source, the Son is God-as- God-Knows-Himself, and knowing himself then the Holy Spirit is God-as-God-Loves-Himself.

Same substance, from three different “angles” as it were…

Now, with created objects…there is only one hypostasis.

It’s true, there is Me, and Me-as-I-know-myself, and Me-as-I-love-myself…so in *my *mind there are different perspectives.

But the objective determiner of hypostases, or “ontological subjects,” is God. And the subjective perspectives of created objects about themselves or others are seen from God’s perspective as really not distinct. But the Trinity are relations of GOD to GOD…the three perspectives on the one substance really become three seperate hypostases, because it is God who is the determiner of hypostasis. So while our distinctions about ourselves are to God merely subjective…his relational distinctions about himself are objectively real because he is the Absolute.

So in his internal life, God is three persons…even though in his external life he acts as one substance.
Good answer.

An analogy I like to use is the sun. Consider the sun, with its light and its heat. The light is not the heat, and the heat is not the light; yet the light and the heat together form one sun, in such a way that the light and heat cannot be seperated from the one sun, although they can proceed from it.

Just as the light proceeds from the sun, so too the Son of God (who is called the light of the world) proceeds from the Father; and just as the heat proceeds from the sun and its light, so to the Holy Ghost (who is associated with fire) proceeds from the father and the Son.

But probably the better way to consider the three persons is as struggling1578212 described it:

It is true that you exist. It is also true that you can know yourself as you exist; and it is equally true that you can love yourself. The “you” is like God the Father; the knowledge of yourself is like God the son; and the love you can have for yourself is like the Holy Ghost. These three are one substance with you, yet the knowledge is not the love, and the love is not the knowledge. The three - you, your selfknowledge, and you self love, are three, yet together form the one “you”.
 
I actually have a philosophical problem with a God who is not Trinity.

God is Love. If God is only one Person, and if love requires other to be completed and perfected, then how can such a God be complete and perfect, as He must be? A one-Person God who is Love would seem to need to create other creatures to love.

But if God is more than one Person, then by His very nature the necessary other exists, and God is complete and perfect in and of Himself, with no need to create objects for His love.
 
You wish to philosophically render the divine…I would reason that Eastern Christians would refuse to participate in this anthropomorphise exercise of God. But that’s just me…
 
it is logically impossible to have three distinct instances of one essence
Where do you get that idea from?

Take a gold ingot. What is the essence or substance of this item? It is gold. Take a second gold ingot. It is of the same essence or substance as the first ingot.
 
You wish to philosophically render the divine…I would reason that Eastern Christians would refuse to participate in this anthropomorphise exercise of God. But that’s just me…
Part of me says “It’s a mystery” while another part of me says “Let’s reason out the answer”. I’m an Eastern Westerner.
 
The Trinity is actually implied in the Divine Name: “I Am that Am” (I would argue that the filioque is as well, but no need to open that can of worms).

What we see with the Divine Name is three key ingredients, all of which underly the Trinity. The “ingredients” are eternity, existence, and personhood. Of these three, eternity and existence are relatively simple and don’t require much comment. The third, however, is where everything turns. It’s also important for this philosophical exercise to view the Divine Name as the most perfect human “expression” of the Divine Essence (recognizing, of course, that there is really no such thing as sufficiently dealing with such a huge matter; I mean this more as a summary of God’s revelation to Moses about His identity).

I would argue that personhood is fundamentally built on three things: being, knowledge, and will. Philosophers traditionally expressed this in such ways as “individual, knowledgable subsistence”, but those three aspects are the gist of it.

First we have being: the Divine Essence Is. Since the Divine Essence is Personal, and person includes the notion of being, the Divine Essence is eternally a Person by virtue of It being. Now, the Divine Essence being is what we call the Father, the unoriginate source of all Deity.

In being, and in being eternal, the Father knows from all eternity, as knowledge is the second fundamental aspect of Personhood, which is a fundamental aspect of the Divine Essence. Now the notion of “knowing” contains two opposite terms: knower and known. In this case, for the purpose of identifying the terms, the knower is the Father, and the Known is the Divine Essence. In us there is nothing spectacular in saying that a person knows themself, since our Essence is neither necessarily existing, nor is it necessarily personal (it can be abstracted fully before we even exist, eliminating the “being” part of person) but with the Divine Essence things are a bit more complex because of the “definition” given in the Divine Name: if the Divine Essence is Personal, as the Name implies, then the Essence Known is Personal; and if the notion of knowing implies an opposite term from knower (the Father), then we have an opposite Person. This is by necessity because of the inherently Personal element of what is known, and the opposing terms of knower and known. We now have the Person of the Son, who incidently is also called the Word which is the ancient philosophical term for a mental conception. This Person is still “I Am that Am” because He is the Divine Essence, and there are not multiple “Essence Knowns” because there is only one knowledge in the notion of Personhood, and the Divine Essence is Personal. We have a multiplication of Essence, and a distinct Person, without a division of Essence. The Son contains everything in Him that the Father does because He shares the Essence, with the exception of being the Father since “known” is opposite of “knower”.

Likewise with the Holy Spirit, who is the notion of the “will”. There are two terms: willed and willer. And what is willed from all eternity but the Divine Essence? We say this not because the Divine Essence is a creature, but because existing persons necessarily “will themselves”, as I will to be Ghosty even if I don’t produce myself. Again, the Essence is Personal, and It is willed from all eternity, and will is opposite from willer as distinct terms. And again, there is only one “Willed” Person of the Divine Essence because there is only one will contained in the notion of Person. So what is Willed but the Divine Essence, complete in every way except that It isn’t the Willer (the Father). We have once again multiplied the Divine Essence (I Am that Am) without dividing it, albeit we have a distinct Person yet again by virtue of opposite terms.

continued…
 
So from all eternity we have the Divine Essence Being, which is the Father, and Known, which is the Son, and Willed, which is the Holy Spirit. Each contains the fullness of the Divine Essence, and the Father is the source of the other two by virtue of being the notion of “being”, which is logically prior to knowing and willing (something has “to be” to be known, and likewise to be willed in the sense that we’re using that notion). Nothing is contained in any of the Three Persons that isn’t contained in the other Two, except for their manner of origin (or lack thereof in the case of the Father). You’ll see that this doesn’t make the Divine Essence it’s own seperate “thing” from the Persons either, but rather by virtue of the Divine Essence essentially being Person, we necessarily have Three Divine Persons: the Trinity.

Obviously all philosophical renderings will fall short of the Glory of God, but I demonstrate this only to show that while the Trinity is incredible, it’s not wholly without philosophical merit. Hopefully that will bring you some peace, even as you remember that the Trinity remains a mystery, something incomprehensible to the human mind no matter how much is known about It. This demonstration also shows that the Trinity is utterly implicit in the Old Testament by virtue of the Divine Name, the Sacred Name that Jews would not even speak aloud for fear of blasphemy, the very identity of the God of Moses.

Peace and God bless!
 
Part of me says “It’s a mystery” while another part of me says “Let’s reason out the answer”. I’m an Eastern Westerner.
Human beings have an inborn curiosity for definition in their environment. But when one trys to define something beyond his/her capabilties, he/she gets caught up in that definition rather than his/her original course. This tends to be the issue with Western theology; so much energy is spent on making the intangible tangible that we end up customizing the Holy Mystery that is the Trinity into a mere analogy of the three states of water.

Doubt is crucial to spiritual discovery, but there is a reason why such matters are faith. It’s a mystery because it’s a mystery. Can you truly reason out the answer to the Essence of God? Not all is meant for our understanding, this is for sure.
 
If the great men blessed to spread the Good News performed such things, why shouldn’t you? Please place your ignorance aside and I ask that you at least appreciate what I have said. You certainly don’t have to agree with it, but remember that those are your origins.
 
…It’s a mystery because it’s a mystery. Can you truly reason out the answer to the Essence of God? Not all is meant for our understanding, this is for sure.
This is very profound, and I am quite pleased to read these words from your keyboard.

Peace
 
It’s a mystery because it’s a mystery. Can you truly reason out the answer to the Essence of God? Not all is meant for our understanding, this is for sure.
There is deep truth in this, but I would insist that there is a difference between “reasoning” and “reasoning out”. You can not drink up a river, but if you can’t drink of it then you will die of thirst.

There is certainly a trap if one thinks they can “figure out” God’s Mysteries, but fear of this trap must be balanced with reasoning with the Mysteries we’ve been given. It is by such reasoning that our Fathers, East and West, put away the heresies and saw the errors in their formulas. So long as our expressions are understood as figures of Divine things, and we remain open to Grace, there is little danger. Even Christ used reasonable figures, such as the vine and the branches, to express Divine Mysteries, and the Apostles carried on in that manner. It is our heritage to do so, and to simply shrug it off is I think just as dangerous a trap.

Our minds must be well formed both in reason and in Grace, with Grace providing the force for a well formed reason.

Peace and God bless!
 
Peace to all,

I have had thoughts on this as well. In the Creed “He is seated at the right hand of the Father.” I catch myself and feel bad when I picture the Lord seated at the right had of God. Then I think of two rather than one. I know there is only one God. Only one. I will follow yor post.

Amir
Don’t feel badly. Our images of God are always misleading; nevertheless they are necessary. As long as you don’t mistake the image for God Himself, you’re fine. Joe
 
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