A Problem I have noticed with Byzantine Catholicism in the West

[coptsoldier]

Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:

1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory
2. Stations of the cross in the Building
3. Congregation kneeling during consecration
4. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense
5. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical
6. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology

This truly bothers me. I am very happy to be in communion with the Roman Church, But I was under the impression that Rome wanted us to return to authentic Orthodox THeology and Patrimony. I am a Big supporter or the Zhogby Initiative Statement of Faith.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.

 

[Vico]

Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:

1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory
2. Stations of the cross in the Building
3. Congregation kneeling during consecration
4. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense
5. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical
6. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology

This truly bothers me. I am very happy to be in communion with the Roman Church, But I was under the impression that Rome wanted us to return to authentic Orthodox THeology and Patrimony. I am a Big supporter or the Zhogby Initiative Statement of Faith.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.

It seems unlikely that you will be able to eliminate these things because people want to continue doing what is their habit. If the bishop and pastor were strong on eliminating some of these, them then it could happen, and I know of one parish where the stations were removed.

As far as beliefs, there is nothing to prevent the faithful from believing in 23 ecumenical councils, the dogmas must be accepted at least. Mortal and venial are not eastern terminology, however the concept of varying degrees of sin is still eastern because there are deadly sins and also transgressions both voluntary and involuntary.

When the Union of Brest statement was accepted by the Ukrainians (then it was Poland) there was agreement to trust in the teaching of purgatory (“We shall not debate about purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church”).

 

[coptsoldier]

I have no issue with the teaching of purgatory. What I dont like is the use of a latin expression when the east has our own expression for such things. Theosis is our patrimony

 

[Vico]

I have no issue with the teaching of purgatory. What I dont like is the use of a latin expression when the east has our own expression for such things. Theosis is our patrimony

In my Byzantine parish Theosis is taught by that name, but it seems that your parish dose not. I know that the Latins use the term Divinization, and say in the Mass: “By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

 

[coptsoldier]

What can i do to help foster authentic eastern spirituality?

 

[phil19034]

What can i do to help foster authentic eastern spirituality?

I’m a Latin Catholic, but I would like to give you a similar piece of advise that Latins give each other when dealing with Protestant and/or dissent influence: pick your battles wisely and do so with brotherly love.

 

[Wandile]

Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:

1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory

Nothing wrong with this. This is a catholic teaching. Although I saw you would prefer it if eastern terminology was used which is understandable. The east should express itself in its own terms

1. Stations of the cross in the Building

There is nothing wrong with this. I mean stations of the cross are a catholic thing. Just as the west can incorporate certain Eastern practices in its daily life. Mixing some practices isn’t such a bad thing or else people will eventually bar certain prayers and devotions because they are too “eastern” or too “western”. We should protect our identity but we must not be hostile to things that do not hurt our identity but might compliment it. I don’t see anything wrong with the presence if the stations of the cross.

1. Congregation kneeling during consecration

If this is against the rubrics then its wrong for them to do so.

1. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense

Again the rubrics will be the scale to judge.

1. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical

21 ecumenical councils. This I believe is a belief that should be held by all Catholics nevermind that Vatican II officially called itself the 21st ecumenical council. But even if this belief is denied, what cannot be denied is the doctrines taught in them.

1. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology

Ok this I can agree with you. The east traditionally has terms to speak of the degrees of sin in its own way

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hello,

I am a convert from Orthodoxy to Byzantine Catholicism. Something which seems to be bothering me and doesn’t seem to go away is the fact that so many of the sub-deacons and younger generation (and even older generations) suffer from latinization in theology. Some of the latinizations in my local Melkite Parish include:

1. Priest praying for the Souls in Purgatory
2. Stations of the cross in the Building
3. Congregation kneeling during consecration
4. Spoken Divine Liturgy without the use of Incense
5. Belief in all 23 Catholic Councils as Ecumenical
6. Expressing Sin in Mortal vs Venial Terminology

This truly bothers me. I am very happy to be in communion with the Roman Church, But I was under the impression that Rome wanted us to return to authentic Orthodox THeology and Patrimony. I am a Big supporter or the Zhogby Initiative Statement of Faith.

What are peoples thoughts? I am not attacking my christian brothers and sisters, I just do not know what to do.

I have a similar “bother”, in addition, I’d like to include “Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament” to mimic the Latins, as well as use of unleavened host when totally unnecessary.

 

[Wandile]

I have a similar “bother”, in addition, I’d like to include “Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament” to mimic the Latins, as well as use of unleavened host when totally unnecessary.

Is eucharistic adoration really a bad thing? I mean to adore the presence of God in our midst shouldn’t be termed a “western” or “Latin” thing, it should be a “Catholic” thing…

 

[SyroMalankara]

Is eucharistic adoration really a bad thing? I mean to adore the presence of God in our midst shouldn’t be termed a “western” or “Latin” thing, it should be a “Catholic” thing…

You seem to be missing the point. I can go to the nearby Latin Church 7 days out of the week, 24hrs a day if I choose to do this. Why impose this onto a Church that doesn’t organically have this practice, especially when it usually means skipping Evening prayer in our authentic Tradition?

Would you think it’s okay for every Latin Church to remove all statues and incorporate Syriac style iconography? I mean after all, icons aren’t bad, they are Catholic, is there anything wrong, how about removing the corpus on the cross? The open cross isn’t “bad” or an Eastern-only thing.

 

[malphono]

You seem to be missing the point. I can go to the nearby Latin Church 7 days out of the week, 24hrs a day if I choose to do this. Why impose this onto a Church that doesn’t organically have this practice, especially when it usually means skipping Evening prayer in our authentic Tradition?

Excellent example. The sad part is that the practice of “Adoration” (and “Benediction” too, for that matter) wasn’t exactly imposed. It was, rather, enthusiastically adopted in order to mimic the Latins. At least it is so for the Maronites, and I believe the rest of the Orient and East as well (although it may have been imposed on the Syro-Malabars after 1598). In any case, I suppose this was done to show how “Catholic” we are (read: how much we love being subservient to Rome). Lord have mercy.

 

[coptsoldier]

I dont think you understand wandidle.

Rome has ordered the eastern churches to delatinize. Whilst adoration, stations of the cross, and prayers for purgatory are lovely traditions, they are not authentic to eastern spirituality, as shown by their non practise in our mother churches the orthodox.

I believe that the byzantine catholic service should be so authentically eastern that the only way you would know they are in union is they pray for the roman pontiff in the liturgy. If rome was serious about reunion with the orthodox, this should be a priority

 

[Wandile]

You seem to be missing the point. I can go to the nearby Latin Church 7 days out of the week, 24hrs a day if I choose to do this. Why impose this onto a Church that doesn’t organically have this practice, especially when it usually means skipping Evening prayer in our authentic Tradition?

Would you think it’s okay for every Latin Church to remove all statues and incorporate Syriac style iconography? I mean after all, icons aren’t bad, they are Catholic, is there anything wrong, how about removing the corpus on the cross? The open cross isn’t “bad” or an Eastern-only thing.

I believe people should do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn’t violate the rubrics or conflict with their traditions. The byzantine liturgy after all is based largely on adoption of various Syriac liturgical practices. I wouldn’t mind occasionally finding a Latin church full of icons. Just as I wouldn’t mind funding a Byzantine or eastern church full of statues.

 

[coptsoldier]

Some of these practices are foreign to our rubics. We should return to our roots and should truly be orthodox in communion with rome. That is when the church will be strongest.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Some of these practices are foreign to our rubics. We should return to our roots and should truly be orthodox in communion with rome. That is when the church will be strongest.

Absolutely. The more our authentic practices get watered down or suppressed, the less we promote the real Catholicity of the Church of Christ.

 

[drfye]

hmm…perhaps you could speak to the parish priest then see if enough of the congregation want to strengthen their eastern roots and not be as latin as part of the Catholic community.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I believe people should do whatever they want to do as long as it doesn’t violate the rubrics or conflict with their traditions. The byzantine liturgy after all is based largely on adoption of various Syriac liturgical practices. I wouldn’t mind occasionally finding a Latin church full of icons. Just as I wouldn’t mind funding a Byzantine or eastern church full of statues.

What about every Latin Church full of icons and no statues? What about the Latin Church disregarding it’s practice of the Stations of the Cross to take up Byzantine evening prayers publicly? Wouldn’t these be very strange?

Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches in the West have all but forgotten about their own Traditions because they imitate the Latin Church so much. So much so that one parish (that shall remain nameless) I personally know refused to pray the actual Lenten prayers of their Tradition, instead praying the Stations of the Cross.
Some entire Eastern Churches are so latinized that while photo-style Stations of the Cross are prominently placed throughout the entire parish, one would be hard pressed to find a real icon.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Excellent example. The sad part is that the practice of “Adoration” (and “Benediction” too, for that matter) wasn’t exactly imposed. It was, rather, enthusiastically adopted in order to mimic the Latins. At least it is so for the Maronites, and I believe the rest of the Orient and East as well (although it may have been imposed on the Syro-Malabars after 1598). In any case, I suppose this was done to show how “Catholic” we are (read: how much we love being subservient to Rome). Lord have mercy.

Pathetic really. Although I’d say it’s still an imposition. Not an imposition from the Latins directly, but an indirect imposition from latinized clergy well educated in all things Latin with no education in anything Eastern, let alone the differences among Easterners. Hence you get the strange hybridizations that are neither authentically Western, nor authentically Eastern, just a strange mush of whatever that priest or bishop is personally.

 

[Wandile]

Some of these practices are foreign to our rubics. We should return to our roots and should truly be orthodox in communion with rome. That is when the church will be strongest.

But this has always confused me. What does it mean to be “Orthodox in communion with Rome”? How can one honestly say this without disrespecting both sides? You cant be Orthodox because you don’t believe the exact same things as them. They deny the immaculate conception, Papal universal jurisdiction and infallibility as well as the filioque. You as Catholics believe these doctrines even though they are understood in eastern terms. If you are truly orthodox then how can it be said you are in communion with Rome because to be in communion with Rome means to hold the same faith as Rome. **One faith, one body, one Christ and One God **

 

[Wandile]

What about every Latin Church full of icons and no statues? What about the Latin Church disregarding it’s practice of the Stations of the Cross to take up Byzantine evening prayers publicly? Wouldn’t these be very strange?

But this is not even the reality for eastern Catholics so this hypothetical is useless TBH.
However if a few Latin parishes abandoned stations of the cross for another spiritually edifying practice then I wouldn’t mind.

Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches in the West have all but forgotten about their own Traditions because they imitate the Latin Church so much. So much so that one parish (that shall remain nameless) I personally know refused to pray the actual Lenten prayers of their Tradition, instead praying the Stations of the Cross.
Some entire Eastern Churches are so latinized that while photo-style Stations of the Cross are prominently placed throughout the entire parish, one would be hard pressed to find a real icon.

Its a shame. I’m not saying abandon all thy makes you yourself. I’m saying don’t be hostile to things merely because they are foreign. Such ideas are foreign to even the first millenium church where liturgies influenced each other. Then with such reasoning Latins would never pray the Jesus prayer and easterners never pray the Hail Mary.