A problem with following Therese

[Le_Bonvivant]

Salve brothers and sisters,

My favourite saint and heroine is Therese of Lisieux, I have found lots of inspiration in her books, poems and books about her by her sister and have also received lots of help from her prayers,

I do my best to follow Therese’s way of love but there is a problem I stumble upon. Therese encourages us to be humble and submissive to everyone, i quote her from My sister saint Therese by her sister Celine, who quotes Therese:

That which we need more than anything else is humility of heart and you cannot believe you possess it until you are willing to let everybody order you about. (…) real virtue is to be submissive under the hand of all.

Now in daily life, following this advice is going to be a problem. At my job for example, there is always competition and there are always bossy people with big mouths who do try to order people about. If I gave those people what they wanted I would be treated as a doormat at my job and I do not see how this would make God happy.
What do you think of this? Does Therese mean to give this advice to people outside of a cloister as well? Or is this only meant for fellow nuns and monks?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Therese is a wonderful saint, but I think those of us in the workplace - where I completely agree, it is not good to be a doormat and you should speak up as needed for yourself, your ideas, and for a proper distribution of workload - might apply that piece of advice by keeping our tempers, being patient with others who are being unreasonable (not yelling at them), seeking to help others rather than compete wherever it is reasonably possible (this doesn’t mean you do everybody else’s work for them, just if you see someone needs help you try to help them, which might mean helping them with the resources they need to actually do the work themself) and generally answer evil with good. And if you do happen to have some low-level job where people are going to order you around, try to take it in good grace.

There are also lots of other saints who had something closer to a job or profession and you can look to one of them when the experiences of a 24-year-old who was seeking to be a perfect obedient nun in a cloister doesn’t quite work. We have to be realistic in applying the teachings of saints. I like many of the teachings of St. Padre Pio too but I am not going to go around in nothing but black cotton stockings and skirts 8 inches below the knee at all times of day and year.

 

[Arizona_Fat_Gir]

Sometimes at work you may have a boss who is a bully. Sometimes she uses foul language and mistreats you.

This can either mean you quit. Or you accept that you can’t change her. Either way it can be a trial and sooner or later she may quit herself. Meanwhile it may be necessary to meet her aggressive behavior with kindness.

 

[Dorothy]

Salve brothers and sisters,

My favourite saint and heroine is Therese of Lisieux, I have found lots of inspiration in her books, poems and books about her by her sister and have also received lots of help from her prayers,

I do my best to follow Therese’s way of love but there is a problem I stumble upon. Therese encourages us to be humble and submissive to everyone, i quote her from My sister saint Therese by her sister Celine, who quotes Therese:

That which we need more than anything else is humility of heart and you cannot believe you possess it until you are willing to let everybody order you about. (…) real virtue is to be submissive under the hand of all.

Now in daily life, following this advice is going to be a problem. At my job for example, there is always competition and there are always bossy people with big mouths who do try to order people about. If I gave those people what they wanted I would be treated as a doormat at my job and I do not see how this would make God happy.
What do you think of this? Does Therese mean to give this advice to people outside of a cloister as well? Or is this only meant for fellow nuns and monks?

As soon as I read that quote I thought it was meant for the rule and discipline of the members of a religious order…most likely those enclosed.

We don’t have to allow others to treat us like doormats and be bossy, as that would be enabling them to be uncharitable. You can always respond in a calm but firm voice to such rudeness.

 

[jcrichton]

Salve brothers and sisters,

My favourite saint and heroine is Therese of Lisieux, I have found lots of inspiration in her books, poems and books about her by her sister and have also received lots of help from her prayers,

I do my best to follow Therese’s way of love but there is a problem I stumble upon. Therese encourages us to be humble and submissive to everyone, i quote her from My sister saint Therese by her sister Celine, who quotes Therese:

That which we need more than anything else is humility of heart and you cannot believe you possess it until you are willing to let everybody order you about. (…) real virtue is to be submissive under the hand of all.

Now in daily life, following this advice is going to be a problem. At my job for example, there is always competition and there are always bossy people with big mouths who do try to order people about. If I gave those people what they wanted I would be treated as a doormat at my job and I do not see how this would make God happy.
What do you think of this? Does Therese mean to give this advice to people outside of a cloister as well? Or is this only meant for fellow nuns and monks?

Hi!

…you’ve recognized that there’s a distinction between Religious and secular lives; however, the tenet of the teaching is the same; you can be humble without being a doormat; here’s where the Saints have taken their q on humility: Jesus’s Teachings:

39 But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well; 40 if a man takes you to law and would have your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone orders you to go one mile, go two miles with him. 42 Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away.

(St. Matthew 5:39-42)
So while you may have to hold your own in a complicated and competitive field, you may still be humble and obedient to God… say I take credit for your work… in the short run you may lose some “credit” (props); in the long run God may credit you in such a way that you end up ahead of me as your work/contribution is acknowledged and rewarded.

…say I take off leaving in charge of the office… it seems unfair… but think of the experience you will be gaining; and in God-incidence, there could be an event where your efforts move you beyond what your job position/status could have done. By Serving God you both defeat the devil and confound man!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Remember Saint Terese died when she was only twenty four. She never had a job and never lived as an adult outside the cloister.

Hi!

…actually, non-paid work is much of the cloistered experience; Nuns and Monks alike did not have the resources to hire help; they had to produce their own food and manufacture their own uniforms and other utilities; imagine a whole day cleaning, gardening, chopping wood; sewing; cooking, gathering materials, baking, making candles… all the while breaking for mandatory prayer cycles… and all the while dealing with the various characters in the cloister–which could include overbearing/zealous superiors, envious/snobbish peers… and then waking up to the same situation 24/7/12.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Sometimes at work you may have a boss who is a bully. Sometimes she uses foul language and mistreats you.

This can either mean you quit. Or you accept that you can’t change her. Either way it can be a trial and sooner or later she may quit herself. Meanwhile it may be necessary to meet her aggressive behavior with kindness.

Hi!

Exactly! Which brings us to Jesus’s:

13 ‘You are the salt of the earth. But if salt becomes tasteless, what can make it salty again? It is good for nothing, and can only be thrown out to be trampled underfoot by men. 14 ‘You are the light of the world. A city built on a hill-top cannot be hidden. 15 No one lights a lamp to put it under a tub; they put it on the lamp-stand where it shines for everyone in the house. 16 In the same way your light must shine in the sight of men, so that, seeing your good works, they may give the praise to your Father in heaven.

(St. Matthew 5:13-16)
Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Mary_Estelle]

Sometimes at work you may have a boss who is a bully. Sometimes she uses foul language and mistreats you.

This can either mean you quit. Or you accept that you can’t change her. Either way it can be a trial and sooner or later she may quit herself. Meanwhile it may be necessary to meet her aggressive behavior with kindness.

Yes, I agree with this to a point. Don’t forget to add prayer to your acts of kindness. Everyone is changeable if they see a better way or themselves as they are and to what they could be or become. Life and personality are not static. Peace.

 

[BarbTh]

Salve brothers and sisters,

My favourite saint and heroine is Therese of Lisieux, I have found lots of inspiration in her books, poems and books about her by her sister and have also received lots of help from her prayers,

I do my best to follow Therese’s way of love but there is a problem I stumble upon. Therese encourages us to be humble and submissive to everyone, i quote her from My sister saint Therese by her sister Celine, who quotes Therese:

That which we need more than anything else is humility of heart and you cannot believe you possess it until you are willing to let everybody order you about. (…) real virtue is to be submissive under the hand of all.

Now in daily life, following this advice is going to be a problem. At my job for example, there is always competition and there are always bossy people with big mouths who do try to order people about. If I gave those people what they wanted I would be treated as a doormat at my job and I do not see how this would make God happy.
What do you think of this? Does Therese mean to give this advice to people outside of a cloister as well? Or is this only meant for fellow nuns and monks?

Spirituality of Imperfection: showcase.netins.net/web/solitude/vilma5.html (written by a well known Carmelite nun) This spirituality could be summed up as that Jesus is not interested in our victories, for victory is always a gift from Him, rather He responds to a life lived all for Love of Him. When we fail and fall St Therese reasoned that a loving parent will comfort their child when they are distressed - and so in her failures, she rested in the arms of a Loving and Merciful Father giving heartfelt thanks for His Abundant Love and Mercy.

Excerpt Part II: before the justice of God.

Before her first communion Marie spoke to Thérèse about life’s struggles and of the palm given to the victors, to those who overcome, and about the riches one could amass each day. Thérèse struggles, but instead of victory, she knows only defeat. What a difficult time this is for Thérèse contends with fear of sin, constant defeat and increasing anxiety. Furthermore, her inner suffering is exacerbated by her over-sensitivity, her self-consciousness and her potential for self-absorption. In light of this, it seems remarkable that during the time of her scruples, Thérèse continues to be conscientious. She does well in her studies, and she receives excellent marks which give her the first prizes at school. At the same time, as one of her teachers observes; "often her expression would be most sad and she seemed more ready to shed tears, in spite of the tenderness and advice we gave her"6

Today we recognize that excessive fear of sin can be lack of acceptance of one’s fragile humanity; a form of disguised narcissism. Even the smallest sin is unbearable when the self needs to be perfect and the goal is self-sanctification. Through years of struggle with her own fragility, Thérèse finally comes to the graced conclusion–extraordinary for her time–that her daily faults are not important in her life with God.7 Such an attitude was virtually unheard of in devout French circles. Her lack of illusions in regard to what it is to be human, allows her to come to such freedom that she can assign her imperfections no more importance than they deserve. She awakens to the truth that God is not concerned about the limitations of being human, but about love. (A, p. 174).

 

[Mummsie]

Therese is a wonderful saint, but I think those of us in the workplace - where I completely agree, it is not good to be a doormat and you should speak up as needed for yourself, your ideas, and for a proper distribution of workload - might apply that piece of advice by keeping our tempers, being patient with others who are being unreasonable (not yelling at them), seeking to help others rather than compete wherever it is reasonably possible (this doesn’t mean you do everybody else’s work for them, just if you see someone needs help you try to help them, which might mean helping them with the resources they need to actually do the work themself) and generally answer evil with good. And if you do happen to have some low-level job where people are going to order you around, try to take it in good grace.

There are also lots of other saints who had something closer to a job or profession and you can look to one of them when the experiences of a 24-year-old who was seeking to be a perfect obedient nun in a cloister doesn’t quite work. We have to be realistic in applying the teachings of saints. I like many of the teachings of St. Padre Pio too but I am not going to go around in nothing but black cotton stockings and skirts 8 inches below the knee at all times of day and year.