A Question About Brainwashing

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My fellow brothers and sisters, I have a interesting question to pose. Thou we all know that even on the brink of death, a sinner may be saved by the glory of god, I have been contemplating what I consider to be a fascinating scenario. Imagine a man or women versed in religion & spirituality whom chooses to sin in every way possible for the sake of enjoying a earthly life. Now we know this traditionally ends in death, however let’s say this same sinner planned, through scientific methods, to completely obliterate the memory of their sins from their mind. Do you believe god would still hold this person accountable for his or her past under these circumstances? What if the person died soon after said memory was removed, er go losing his or her opportunity to find Christ? In some argument without our memory we are rendered infants or even reborn in a manner of speaking, so how do you think god would respond to this, would he punish the new for the actions of the old?
 
Diamond_Dust said:
My fellow brothers and sisters, I have a interesting question to pose. Thou we all know that even on the brink of death, a sinner may be saved by the glory of god, I have been contemplating what I consider to be a fascinating scenario. Imagine a man or women versed in religion & spirituality whom chooses to sin in every way possible for the sake of enjoying a earthly life. Now we know this traditionally ends in death, however let’s say this same sinner planned, through scientific methods, to completely obliterate the memory of their sins from their mind. Do you believe god would still hold this person accountable for his or her past under these circumstances? What if the person died soon after said memory was removed, er go losing his or her opportunity to find Christ? In some argument without our memory we are rendered infants or even reborn in a manner of speaking, so how do you think god would respond to this, would he punish the new for the actions of the old?
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I’m not sure what you mean. The question seems to suggest loss of memory could be considered equal to reconciling with God.
 
I think this would constitute what the Church terms “vincible” and it’s opposite; “invincible ignorance”. This is why the Church considers matters of education very important; we all have a duty to inform our consciences.

CCC 1793:

If…the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

Pope Pius IX discusses this in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (10 August 1863):
  1. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
The term, however, is far older than that. Aquinas, for instance, uses it in his Summa Theologica (written 1265–1274),[1] and discussion of the concept can be found as far back as Origen (3rd century), proof that no matter how ingenious you think your moral dilemma may be, some Catholic theologian will have already considered it in great depth!
 
Dear Orang

In Romans 2:15 (I admit that I may be stretching this out of context) that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them A loss of memory may not equate to reconciliation but I am certain it would be a matter of consideration for our Lord God during the time of judgment. Thou the lord has graced us with the holy spirit, our experiences and decisions are all compacted inside of our brain. Therefore one would assume the complete loss of memory would render in a complication to the issue of judgment. I am merely asking for a theoretical explanation on how this would be handled. So, a sinner whom intentionally lived a life of sin, goes on to remove his memory through a hypothetical method, and then either

A- died sooner after
or
B- Went on to live a good honest life

Now to me punishing someone for a sin they couldn’t possibly remember (Thus confess to) does not seem justifiable, even if the memory was restored in the after-life, for then the earthly had no chance of redemption if the sin remains. On the other hand, such a plot to live a sinful lifestyle and avoid punishment simply cannot be overlooked as it would essentially become a loop-hole.
 
Diamond_Dust said:
My fellow brothers and sisters, I have a interesting question to pose. Thou we all know that even on the brink of death, a sinner may be saved by the glory of god, I have been contemplating what I consider to be a fascinating scenario. Imagine a man or women versed in religion & spirituality whom chooses to sin in every way possible for the sake of enjoying a earthly life. Now we know this traditionally ends in death, however let’s say this same sinner planned, through scientific methods, to completely obliterate the memory of their sins from their mind. Do you believe god would still hold this person accountable for his or her past under these circumstances? What if the person died soon after said memory was removed, er go losing his or her opportunity to find Christ? In some argument without our memory we are rendered infants or even reborn in a manner of speaking, so how do you think god would respond to this, would he punish the new for the actions of the old?
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Why bother having experiences if they will not be remembered?

And to answer your question, there is nothing to suggest that amnesia eliminates sin. Our mind is not the soul, but only a process thereof.

That would go double if the amnesia were freely chosen.

We like to think, based on gooey-feely films such as **Regarding Henry **, **Overboard and ** American Dreamer, that amnesia is a new start in life; in fact, it would only be one’s old life with a hole torn in it; our mind makes us who we are.

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie said:
Why bother having experiences if they will not be remembered?

And to answer your question, there is nothing to suggest that amnesia eliminates sin. Our mind is not the soul, but only a process thereof.

That would go double if the amnesia were freely chosen.

We like to think, based on gooey-feely films such as **Regarding Henry **, **Overboard and ** American Dreamer, that amnesia is a new start in life; in fact, it would only be one’s old life with a hole torn in it; our mind makes us who we are.

ICXC NIKA.
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I think your question about why could be applied to every atheist on the planet among others. Perhaps this hypothetical individual sinned simply for the sake of enjoying the here and now.

In regards to your answer, I suppose there is truth in it, but I still find it strange how justice could be carried out if the sinner cannot repent, at least not in a traditional sense, (We are assuming he/she committed mortal sins as well). A interesting dilemma nonetheless, anyway I need to catch my sleep friends, I will respond to further replies tomorrow assuming there are any.
 
I would say that they are still responsible because at the time of the sins, they knew what they were doing. Then they tried to get out of the consequences by erasing the memory. I can’t think of the verse in scripture, but states “God will not be mocked”.

They had the ability to ask for forgiveness, and instead used their freewill to have surgery to avoid asking for forgiveness, yet still retain (I assume) material benefits that they gained while living sinfully. Because this is an act of the will to intentionally, not seek forgiveness they are still fully responsible. To me this would be a classic “unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit”.

On the other hand, after having their memory wiped, they later at some point make an honest good confession of all their remembered sins and include in that confession that they also seek forgiveness for the sins that they no longer remember, I have to believe that God is faithful and does not want anyone to be lost, and therefor will forgive them.
 
Assuming the person repents of what is remember and would have repented for any other remembered sins, they would be fine as long as they made confession (or an act of perfect contrition) before they die. We all can forget sins. They are forgiven in the confessional with the sins we remember too confess as long as we are not deliberately withholding them.
 
Great hypothetical question! I used to love these when I was younger, lol.

I think that the brainwashing would be of minimal benefit. For though he would not remember his sins, the memory erasure did not change his personality. Either he would continue living a sinful life and the memory erasing would be of no benefit or he would be a true Christian and truly repent of all sin and thus the confessional wording would become quite literal: “For these and all the sins that I can’t remember, and all the sins of my past life, I ask pardon of God and penance and absolution of you, Father.”
 
NewEnglandPriest said:
Great hypothetical question! I used to love these when I was younger, lol.

I think that the brainwashing would be of minimal benefit. For though he would not remember his sins, the memory erasure did not change his personality. Either he would continue living a sinful life and the memory erasing would be of no benefit or he would be a true Christian and truly repent of all sin and thus the confessional wording would become quite literal: “For these and all the sins that I can’t remember, and all the sins of my past life, I ask pardon of God and penance and absolution of you, Father.”
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Ah the golden days of our youth huh, I may only be in my early twenties but I’m already afraid to look in the mirror heh. Well, your answer seems to be the consensus thus far & I have to say I agree. When I posed the question I didn’t really consider the spiritual side of things as much as I probably should have. The Lord can most certainly forgive forgotten sins of the past and a person with a sickened mind will not escape his nature without the holy spirit, very true.

The other hypothetical is what would happen should the person immediately die, but then I suppose the same question has been asked about the unbaptized and it always comes down to subjective opinion. Anyway I appreciate the answers guys, may the Lord be with you.
 
Diamond_Dust said:
Dear Orang

In Romans 2:15 (I admit that I may be stretching this out of context) that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them A loss of memory may not equate to reconciliation but I am certain it would be a matter of consideration for our Lord God during the time of judgment.

Thou the lord has graced us with the holy spirit, our experiences and decisions are all compacted inside of our brain.

Therefore one would assume the complete loss of memory would render in a complication to the issue of judgment. I am merely asking for a theoretical explanation on how this would be handled. So, a sinner whom intentionally lived a life of sin, goes on to remove his memory through a hypothetical method, and then either

A- died sooner after
or
B- Went on to live a good honest life

Now to me punishing someone for a sin they couldn’t possibly remember (Thus confess to) does not seem justifiable, even if the memory was restored in the after-life, for then the earthly had no chance of redemption if the sin remains. On the other hand, such a plot to live a sinful lifestyle and avoid punishment simply cannot be overlooked as it would essentially become a loop-hole.
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See above where this appears, " Thou the lord has graced us with the holy spirit, our experiences and decisions are all compacted inside of our brain".

Answer :

The lord , being God and a part of the Trinity, has graced us with a soul. Trying to find a way to misrepresent the soul is illogical relative to the understandings and beliefs in the question from the outset.

With zero mind-soul theory alongside a full explanation, it is not a good question, so I still do not understand what you mean.

politely what is meant and eluded to , all compacted inside our brain ? where does the soul and state of the soul fit in with this scheme. For example, is it thought consciousness or unconsciousness is in fact the soul ? what are you talking about this is confusing.
 
Everyone’s body dies and has no physical memory yet we each are answerable for our sins committed. The difference is completely that this person is trying to trick his way out of his sins and will only add to his guilt. Confessed after his acts are forgotten, God will be merciful, but purging will likely be plentiful.
 
wmw said:
Everyone’s body dies and has no physical memory yet we each are answerable for our sins committed. The difference is completely that this person is trying to trick his way out of his sins and will only add to his guilt. Confessed after his acts are forgotten, God will be merciful, but purging will likely be plentiful.
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Once you are “made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18) and your mind comes back on, you will remember everything.

However, we can only do penance for our sins while humanly alive.

ICXC NIKA.
 
GEddie said:
Once you are “made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18) and your mind comes back on, you will remember everything.

However, we can only do penance for our sins while humanly alive.

ICXC NIKA.
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catholic.com/tracts/purgatory

.
The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.*
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OK. There seems to be some other misunderstanding; so, lets do a complete review and clarify it for everyone.

The sequence of the scenario proposed:
  1. Sin
  2. destroy memory
  3. Confession w absolution (i.e Penance)
  4. Death
  5. The individual Judgement (where we agree that God would review his life and restore his memories)
  6. Purgatory
  7. Heaven
  8. The final judgement at the end of time.
 
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