A question about the divide between East and West

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Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ, first let me say that I love the beautiful Catholic faith (Latin Rite) isn’t great. I converted from the Southern Baptist faith some 26+ years ago and could not imagine being any other faith. I would like to ask two questions regarding the differences that divide East and West so to speak.

I am curious about the hard core theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that cannot be reconciled by either side. Is there really that many and are they that great of a theological barrier that they will never be overcome?

Again with my limited knowledge I had always thought that we were very, very close and that the separation was mostly about hierarchy or territorial issues. But then again this just may be my ignorance on the subject.

The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.

Please, Please, Please for those who want to take this opportunity to be antagonistic, please refrain as I really want to learn something about this subject. Peace.
 
Protestants focus on the Catholic Church because of their history. Since they broke from it ostensibly because corruptions of faith and practice, they must justify their continued separation by polemics. I’m a convert from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy, so it’s the Protestant tradition that I’m most familiar with, and there historically has been an obsession among them with attacking Catholicism. I was taught that Catholic piety is superstitious, that they believe they merit heaven by their works and therefore are condemned to hell, that they worship Mary and the saints, that the office of the Papacy is the Antichrist, etc. I came to realize how absurd these accusations are, and despite converting to Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism, have deep sympathies with Catholics for the attacks they have to endure. I experienced it once myself on a date with a devout Protestant girl. We started talking about our faiths, and she asked what Orthodox believed, and after I described it she said I wasn’t really a Christian and we couldn’t continue dating. I was shocked to be told that, though I understand her convictions. Protestants simply aren’t as threatened by Orthodoxy because they don’t derive their existence from it, and are also much less aware of its existence, though this is starting to change as more Protestants convert.
 
dcointin said:
Protestants focus on the Catholic Church because of their history. Since they broke from it ostensibly because corruptions of faith and practice, they must justify their continued separation by polemics. I’m a convert from Lutheranism to Orthodoxy, so it’s the Protestant tradition that I’m most familiar with, and there historically has been an obsession among them with attacking Catholicism. I was taught that Catholic piety is superstitious, that they believe they merit heaven by their works and therefore are condemned to hell, that they worship Mary and the saints, that the office of the Papacy is the Antichrist, etc. I came to realize how absurd these accusations are, and despite converting to Orthodoxy instead of Catholicism, have deep sympathies with Catholics for the attacks they have to endure. I experienced it once myself on a date with a devout Protestant girl. We started talking about our faiths, and she asked what Orthodox believed, and after I described it she said I wasn’t really a Christian and we couldn’t continue dating. I was shocked to be told that, though I understand her convictions. Protestants simply aren’t as threatened by Orthodoxy because they don’t derive their existence from it, and are also much less aware of its existence, though this is starting to change as more Protestants convert.
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Thanks for the explanation and I see the logic in it. I guess that because I lived in a spiritual wasteland for too many years before I converted, I sometimes tend to forget some of the logic that is used to justify their position. Thanks for the memory jog.
 
wmscott said:
The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.
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I can’t be certain being that I am not Protestant, but I would venture a guess that the Orthodox Church split several centuries before the Protestants did, and so the Protestants don’t see themselves as ‘coming’ from the Orthodox, but rather solely from the Catholics.
 
Dear brother wmscott,
wmscott said:
I am curious about the hard core theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that cannot be reconciled by either side. Is there really that many and are they that great of a theological barrier that they will never be overcome?
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From the Eastern and Oriental Catholic perspective, there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome. And I’ve yet to see any EO or OO rhetoric that can prove otherwise. For example, HH Pope Shenoute has written that the IC is to be rejected because it teaches that Mary did not have a natural birth like Christ. In point of fact, this teaching (that Mary did not have a natural birth like Christ) was condemned explicitly by Pope Benedict XIV in 1677 specifically in connection with debates about the IC. This is just one of the numerous misconceptions about Catholic doctrine that abound among our non-Catholic brethren, and the misconceptions run amok with regards to every controversial doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Again with my limited knowledge I had always thought that we were very, very close and that the separation was mostly about hierarchy or territorial issues. But then again this just may be my ignorance on the subject.
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You are correct, we are more close than apart, though one should respect the fact that there are definite distinctions between the several Traditions within the Catholic Church. The key is that we can look beyond the distinctions and see the Faith that actually unites us.
The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.
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Others have given good reasons. I think one of the reasons is that the Orthodox Churches are simply not Catholic. It’s the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” mentality. Protestant and Eastern Orthodox arguments against Catholicism borrow from each other (with regards to the papacy, the IC, indulgences, Purgatory, etc., etc., etc.). The fact that the Catholic Church has never been a member of the World Council of Churches (unlike the Protestant and Orthodox Churches) rather reinforces that mentality.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
wmscott said:
Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ, first let me say that I love the beautiful Catholic faith (Latin Rite) isn’t great. I converted from the Southern Baptist faith some 26+ years ago and could not imagine being any other faith. I would like to ask two questions regarding the differences that divide East and West so to speak.

I am curious about the hard core theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that cannot be reconciled by either side. Is there really that many and are they that great of a theological barrier that they will never be overcome?

Again with my limited knowledge I had always thought that we were very, very close and that the separation was mostly about hierarchy or territorial issues. But then again this just may be my ignorance on the subject.

The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.

Please, Please, Please for those who want to take this opportunity to be antagonistic, please refrain as I really want to learn something about this subject. Peace.
Click to expand...
I think the primary obstacle is the Papacy.

There have been many theological consultations and agreements since Vatican II between the Catholic Church and other Christians regarding doctrinal issues (justification, sacraments, ministry, etc.). Thanks be to God!

So, in the end, my own opinion is that the primary barrier centers on the hierarchy/governance of the Church, including the way the Papacy is exercised currently.
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother wmscott,

From the Eastern and Oriental Catholic perspective, there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome. And I’ve yet to see any EO or OO rhetoric that can prove otherwise. For example, HH Pope Shenoute has written that the IC is to be rejected because it teaches that Mary did not have a natural birth like Christ. In point of fact, this teaching (that Mary did not have a natural birth like Christ) was condemned explicitly by Pope Benedict XIV in 1677 specifically in connection with debates about the IC. This is just one of the numerous misconceptions about Catholic doctrine that abound among our non-Catholic brethren, and the misconceptions run amok with regards to every controversial doctrine of the Catholic Church.

You are correct, we are more close than apart, though one should respect the fact that there are definite distinctions between the several Traditions within the Catholic Church. The key is that we can look beyond the distinctions and see the Faith that actually unites us.

Others have given good reasons. I think one of the reasons is that the Orthodox Churches are simply not Catholic. It’s the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” mentality. Protestant and Eastern Orthodox arguments against Catholicism borrow from each other (with regards to the papacy, the IC, indulgences, Purgatory, etc., etc., etc.). The fact that the Catholic Church has never been a member of the World Council of Churches (unlike the Protestant and Orthodox Churches) rather reinforces that mentality.

Blessings,
Marduk
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Thanks for the explanations Marduk, so if there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome, then is the desire to remain separated more out of wanting to retain a hierarchal supremacy?

Also a question as far as Orthodox and Catholic, I thought we were all “Catholic”, and that the titles Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any of the other variations were just distinctions between rites or traditions.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. Peace.
 
wmscott said:
Thanks for the explanations Marduk, so if there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome, then is the desire to remain separated more out of wanting to retain a hierarchal supremacy?

Also a question as far as Orthodox and Catholic, I thought we were all “Catholic”, and that the titles Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any of the other variations were just distinctions between rites or traditions.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. Peace.
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Within the Catholic Church there are many “sui uris”, or self governing, churches which are all in communion with the See of Rome and confess the same dogmas, and are therefore all Catholic. The most numerous is the one you’re probably most familiar with, the Roman Catholic Church, which celebrates the Roman Rite and is the dominant Catholic church in Western Europe and America. There are others, such as the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, which are the dominant Catholic churches in Eastern Europe and the Middle East (though they do have a presence in the west as well), and celebrate various Eastern rites. To simplify things, most of these churches had broken communion with the See of Rome and were know as Orthodox Churches until various times when they reunited with it. A website I think you’d find interesting to learn more about eastern Catholicm is: “http://www.byzcath.org/”. These churches are different from the Orthodox churches, such as the Antiochian Orthodox Church (the one I’m a member of), which are not in communion with the See of Rome, and have some dogmatic differences. The separation between east and west into what became known as Orthodoxy and Catholicism took centuries and was very complicated, but has existed since about 1200 in most places. So to recap, there is the Catholic Church, which has both western and eastern churches (though the western is most familiar), and the Orthodox Church, which is separate.
 
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Dear brother wmscott
wmscott said:
Thanks for the explanations Marduk, so if there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome, then is the desire to remain separated more out of wanting to retain a hierarchal supremacy?
Click to expand...
Also a question as far as Orthodox and Catholic, I thought we were all “Catholic”, and that the titles Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any of the other variations were just distinctions between rites or traditions.
Click to expand...
Brother Dcointin did a good job explaining this. I would just like to add two things:
  1. There are two Orthodox groups - the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental Orthodox split with the Catholic Church during the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D. The Eastern Orthodox split with the Catholic Church at a later date, as brother Dcointin has described. There are also the Assyrian Churches of the East (sometimes called “Nestorian” Churches) which split with the Catholic Church in 431 A.D.
  2. The distinctions are not simply ritual and traditional, but also theological. There are theological differences between Eastern, Oriental, and Western Catholics, but there are no dogmatic differences (as brother Dcointin pointed out).
Blessings,
Marduk
 
wmscott said:
Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ, first let me say that I love the beautiful Catholic faith (Latin Rite) isn’t great. I converted from the Southern Baptist faith some 26+ years ago and could not imagine being any other faith. I would like to ask two questions regarding the differences that divide East and West so to speak.

I am curious about the hard core theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that cannot be reconciled by either side. Is there really that many and are they that great of a theological barrier that they will never be overcome?

Again with my limited knowledge I had always thought that we were very, very close and that the separation was mostly about hierarchy or territorial issues. But then again this just may be my ignorance on the subject.

The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.

Please, Please, Please for those who want to take this opportunity to be antagonistic, please refrain as I really want to learn something about this subject. Peace.
Click to expand...
Before listing a few differences, I want to say that generally, I have found that Catholics tend to minimize the differences,whereas the Eastern Orthodox tend to magnify these same differences.
  1. Generally E. Orthodox do not accept the marriage annulment process to divorce and remarriage as it works in the USA. It is their view that the Sacrament of Matrimony is given by the words of the priest and they will allow one or two divorces in extreme circumstances, and as a concession to human weakness, based on their reading of what was allowed by the Church in ancient times.
  2. Infallibility of the Roman Pope
  3. Filioque
  4. Universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pope.
  5. Purgatory and indulgences.
  6. Immaculate Conception
  7. Baptism should be conferred by triple immersion.
  8. Infants should be chrismated and receive Holy Communion at the time of Baptism.
  9. Some see a problem with the current Liturgy as it is celebrated in the West.
    and a few other things, such as a belief that statues violate the commandment against the use of graven images.
 
sidbrown said:
Before listing a few differences, I want to say that generally, I have found that Catholics tend to minimize the differences,whereas the Eastern Orthodox tend to magnify these same differences.
  1. Generally E. Orthodox do not accept the marriage annulment process to divorce and remarriage as it works in the USA. It is their view that the Sacrament of Matrimony is given by the words of the priest and they will allow one or two divorces in extreme circumstances, and as a concession to human weakness, based on their reading of what was allowed by the Church in ancient times.
  2. Infallibility of the Roman Pope
  3. Filioque
  4. Universal jurisdiction of the Roman Pope.
  5. Purgatory and indulgences.
  6. Immaculate Conception
  7. Baptism should be conferred by triple immersion.
  8. Infants should be chrismated and receive Holy Communion at the time of Baptism.
  9. Some see a problem with the current Liturgy as it is celebrated in the West.
    and a few other things, such as a belief that statues violate the commandment against the use of graven images.
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Thanks for the list of issues that seem to what is dividing us.

So I ask or Orthodox brothers and sisters which of these are insurmountable and why. Thanks in advance.
 
wmscott said:
Hello my brothers and sisters in Christ, first let me say that I love the beautiful Catholic faith (Latin Rite) isn’t great. I converted from the Southern Baptist faith some 26+ years ago and could not imagine being any other faith. I would like to ask two questions regarding the differences that divide East and West so to speak.

I am curious about the hard core theological differences between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches that cannot be reconciled by either side. Is there really that many and are they that great of a theological barrier that they will never be overcome?

Again with my limited knowledge I had always thought that we were very, very close and that the separation was mostly about hierarchy or territorial issues. But then again this just may be my ignorance on the subject.

The second question is if we are so very close and only separated by very little in theological issues, what do you attribute to the Protestants obvious focus on the Catholic Church rather than both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches when attacking the faith.

Please, Please, Please for those who want to take this opportunity to be antagonistic, please refrain as I really want to learn something about this subject. Peace.
Click to expand...
Hi! I am writing a book on this and if you will permit me I will address some of these issues here in advance. It is my own understanding that after much reflection that we got it all wrong about our respective Churches, Orthodox and Catholic. I am convinced that neither you or me or anyone can stop unity. Whatever was done in the past or whatever will come now or in the future will not stop God in uniting His Church. Remember the scripture which stated " this was God’s doing and it was marvelous in our eyes! " God will have His day and the Church will be united. Nothing can prevent it. Just as the infidelity of Israel did not prevent the coming of Our Lord so too will our own infidelities not prevent God from uniting His Church. Let me explain that in the beginning of our existence as a Church,we were not as in Communion as we were taught. First we were apart geographically and second we had a language barrier. Thirdly we did not visit or see each other so that intercommunion was hardly there. And how could we? There was a different language and people did not travel back then as they do today. I liken our 2 Churches like a triangle. We started out as like the bottom of the triangle. As we grew independantly from each other guided by the same Holy Spirit we see the two sides of the left and right converging closer and closer. Eventually the two sides will meet and join together in the time that God has willed. This will be His doing and not ours and it will be " marvelous in our eyes! " God has been bringing up two individualities, 2 Churches, all by Himself so that at the right time He will bring them together. Just like a married couple each individual needs to grow independantly from the other before they come together God has willed His Church to grow like 2 individuals one Catholic the other Orthodox so that when they have matured enough they will be brought together. I liken the Catholic Church with an individuality that has contained within herself with feminine qualities resembling much the Immaculate Heart of Mary. I see the Orthodox with more qualities with masquline tendecies and resembling more the Sacred Heart of Our Lord Jesus. Bringing these 2 together God will accomplished His greatest achievement and the 2 will have become 1. My book will explain alot more and will bring out more clarification to the misunderstandings that are so present today. God has so designed His Church so that it can be possible. Imagine if you will that God allowed both His 2 individuals to be raised by the same Holy Spirit so that they are identical in their sacramental way of life. So they may have different expressions to their respective teachings yet it was done this way or designed this way so that both can learn from each other and to give to each other. Just as the man will love to receive and learn from his wife so the wife will also learn and receive from her husband. One is not taken over from the other rather one is completed from the other. Your husband will complete you and your wife will complete you. God designed the 2 Churches the same way. They will complete each other. What will emerge is a stronger and more vibrant Church. The differences in East and West were necessary just as a man will be somewhat different than his wife. They both bring together their best qualities that make them up and imagine how much their children will benefit from this. This is partly what my book will be addressing and as I said earlier we cannot stop what God will unite. It was always in His plan to do this and despite our sins and the sins of our Churches God will accomplish this.
 
In addition to the reasons given by sidbrown, I would also add these:
  • Scholastic approach to theology
  • Emphasis sin and atonement rather than death and theosis
  • use of azymes (unleavened bread)
How important these differences are depends on who you talk to. I personally consider most of these to be differences of tradition rather than dogma, but there are others that take a much stricter view. The most significant area of disagreement in my opinion is the universal jurisdiction and infallibility of the Pope, and I don’t see any way for this to be reconciled without either Church changing its position. I’ve attempted to understand the Catholic teaching on this, but there seems to be differences in opinion that I’ve been unable to reconcile (e.g. see the thread “The Pope’s Jurisdiction” in the Traditional Catholicism forum). For the Eastern Orthodox, the Pope was the first among bishops, but his office is sacramentally the same as theirs, and the jurisdiction which he possesses comes from conciliar decree, not divine right. Given that the Roman Church has dogmatized its view, I don’t see how compromise is possible.
 
Thank you to all that have answered my questions, I appreciate your patience in enlightening me and answering my questions. DavidKay, your response is great and it is easy to understand. I like the analogies that you have used. It also gives hope that one day we can be united; I hope that I will be able to see it in my lifetime. One can only hope and pray to that end.

In the last several months I have started to avoid the non-Catholic forum as it seems to be too volatile. I was burning out because it was the same folks over and over who wanted to continue to attack the faith, spread lies and anti-Catholic falsehoods, and refused to see the truth. It just feels good to ask some questions and get answers without all the hate and venom.

Thanks again to all who have clued me in. Peace.
 
wmscott said:
Thanks for the explanations Marduk, so if there are no “hard-core” theological differences that cannot be overcome, then is the desire to remain separated more out of wanting to retain a hierarchal supremacy?

Also a question as far as Orthodox and Catholic, I thought we were all “Catholic”, and that the titles Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or any of the other variations were just distinctions between rites or traditions.

Again, thanks for taking the time to explain this to me. Peace.
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“Orthodox” and “Catholic” as typically understood are two distinct Christian divisions.

Both share the same faith and sacraments, but not the same hierarchy. They are not in full communion with one another.
 
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