A question about the Jews

[Montalban]

ok I’ll start another thread… as it’s quite a big topic really…the whole good/evil thing lol. hopefully it won’t be just you and I there! lol

S

Well as noted my information on Judaism is dependant on what people post here (or there, on your proposed thread). So I will be more ‘reacting’ to what is written.

Unlike Islam, with which I’ve studied, and thus can write proactively about Judaism remains a great mystery for me.

 

[Valke2]

My apologies if you feel I’ve misrepresented your, and/or the Jewish position.

I’m only going by the evidence you guys present and Kaninchen, post #6 cited as information several sites about the Messiah. One said this…

**All of the Jewish people **will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Now I’m faced by the prospect of doubting this site because you believe otherwise.

I do not believe otherwise. No one is disputing that a condition of the Messianic Age will be all the Jews returning to Israel. The only thing I am trying to convey is that this may either be caused by the Messiah’s actions or it may be a sign that the Messiah is here.

I’m not sure why yoiu feel he either has to be compelling us or subject to our will. I suppose if we choose to follow a leader, the leader is dependent on us somewhat. But I’m not sure what this has to do with anything.

 

[Montalban]

I’m not sure why yoiu feel he either has to be compelling us or subject to our will. I suppose if we choose to follow a leader, the leader is dependent on us somewhat. But I’m not sure what this has to do with anything.

Because you either go to Israel because he makes you - in order for all the Jews to be there, or you all go of your own free will. And if the latter, then he’s not the ‘Messiah’ until everyone goes - as this is one of the signs. And thus he’s dependant upon everyone going.

 

[Valke2]

Because you either go to Israel because he makes you - in order for all the Jews to be there, or you all go of your own free will. And if the latter, then he’s not the ‘Messiah’ until everyone goes - as this is one of the signs. And thus he’s dependant upon everyone going.

He’s the Messiah before everyone goes. It is just that one of the signs indicating this hasn’t been revealed. Do you believe Jesus wasn’t Jesus untill he fullfilled prophecy?

 

[Montalban]

He’s the Messiah before everyone goes. It is just that one of the signs indicating this hasn’t been revealed. Do you believe Jesus wasn’t Jesus until he fulfilled prophecy?

I don’t argue “I can know only Jesus once people start believing that he’s Jesus” or some other such condition. I agree that Jesus is Jesus whether anyone believes in him or not, and likewise I agree that it’s possible, in your system to suggest that the Messiah is the Messiah without people believing in him or not. However I’ve not argued this, I’ve argued that you can only know who the Messiah is, by a condition being met by the people… that is, that they all gather in Israel. This itself produces two problems. One I’ve gone over already, and will do so again here, that the people control the Messianic event. The other, dealt with later I’ll leave as a surprise for now…

For you, you might well say “X” is the Messiah before such-and-such happens, but how do you know which person is that Messiah, well one of the signs is a conditional one - that all people must volunteer and go to Israel - it is thus making revelation of him dependant on people fulfilling one of the signs that he is the Messiah.

Simply put, you can’t know who is the Messiah unless the people perform an action… And here comes the second problem.

It’s almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. Imagine if you would a situation where the worlds Jews convince themselves “The time of the Messiah is near. We must all gather together to Israel”, then if this happens any number of people could come forward and claim to be the Messiah, because the condition has been met by the people, and not the Messiah himself.

You could be certain one of the claimants is, because a condition has been met, but you’d not know which one was involved in act. And another condition is that the person must be of the House of David. All of the claimants could make the same claim too, and you’d not know because the condition is also based on circular reasoning, that I’ve gone over earlier. That is, whomever is the Messiah MUST BE of the House of David to be the Messiah.

Or is there something in Jewish prophecy to say that they’ll be no false claimants?

 

[Valke2]

I don’t argue “I can know only Jesus once people start believing that he’s Jesus” or some other such condition. I agree that Jesus is Jesus whether anyone believes in him or not, and likewise I agree that it’s possible, in your system to suggest that the Messiah is the Messiah without people believing in him or not. However I’ve not argued this, I’ve argued that you can only know who the Messiah is, by a condition being met by the people… that is, that they all gather in Israel. This itself produces two problems. One I’ve gone over already, and will do so again here, that the people control the Messianic event. The other, dealt with later I’ll leave as a surprise for now…

For you, you might well say “X” is the Messiah before such-and-such happens, but how do you know which person is that Messiah, well one of the signs is a conditional one - that all people must volunteer and go to Israel - it is thus making revelation of him dependant on people fulfilling one of the signs that he is the Messiah.

Simply put, you can’t know who is the Messiah unless the people perform an action… And here comes the second problem.

It’s almost a self-fulfilling prophecy. Imagine if you would a situation where the worlds Jews convince themselves “The time of the Messiah is near. We must all gather together to Israel”, then if this happens any number of people could come forward and claim to be the Messiah, because the condition has been met by the people, and not the Messiah himself.

You could be certain one of the claimants is, because a condition has been met, but you’d not know which one was involved in act. And another condition is that the person must be of the House of David. All of the claimants could make the same claim too, and you’d not know because the condition is also based on circular reasoning, that I’ve gone over earlier. That is, whomever is the Messiah MUST BE of the House of David to be the Messiah.

Or is there something in Jewish prophecy to say that they’ll be no false claimants?

We’ve already had false claimiants – Jesus, Kohba, some guy in the 1600s… Again, how is setting forth a list of conditions a form of circular reasoning. The only condition that we can’t, at this time, be sure is provable, is the lineage. Don’t worry. We’ll deal with it.

 

[Montalban]

We’ve already had false claimants – Jesus, Kohba, some guy in the 1600s… Again, how is setting forth a list of conditions a form of circular reasoning.

It’s not just ‘setting forth a list of conditions’ as I’ve explained, it depends on the particular conditions you set down, the one about gathering in Israel for instance doesn’t prove someone’s a Messiah. Evidentially you wish straw-man. :crying:

I have stated that with regards to Israel any number of people would be able to claim that they’re the Messiah. I don’t believe I can make it any more simpler than I have. I noted that the conditions to be met aren’t met by the Messiah himself - as it’s the people who themselves who make it happen. Once they do, you won’t know which claimant is the Messiah, because they did nothing about those conditions.

It’s like if you had said “We’ll know the Messiah, because he’s able to do something” is very much different to saying “We’ll know the Messiah is here because something is done”. Once the latter has happened you can’t differentiate which claimant would be false, or not.

The only condition that we can’t, at this time, be sure is provable, is the lineage. Don’t worry. We’ll deal with it.

And that is part is circular NOT THE MERE SETTING OF A CONDITION as you would now pretend that I have stated. Whomever is Messiah must be from the House of David, because if they weren’t from the House of David they’d not be Messiah.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think Kanichen’s quote about the clarity of the Book of Revelation was made tongue in cheek. It is not generally considered to be very clear, as shown by the different interpretations by Christian denominations.

But if Kanicnen says that it’s not what Kanichen meant, then I’ll say it instead

Yes, tongue-very-firmly-in-cheek! (how could anybody not notice?)

 

[Montalban]

Kaninchen and Valke2 have still yet to explain how the Messiah will be known by events beyond his control.

At best one might be able to say “This is the time of the Messiah” because all the people have gone back to Israel, but one would still not know that a particular person is the Messiah, given that in fact anyone could make that claim at that time, the condition being met independently of the claimant.

 

[Kaninchen]

Kaninchen and Valke2 have still yet to explain how the Messiah will be known by events beyond his control.

At best one might be able to say “This is the time of the Messiah” because all the people have gone back to Israel, but one would still not know that a particular person is the Messiah, given that in fact anyone could make that claim at that time, the condition being met independently of the claimant.

As I’ve said all along, Montalban, you’re just too smart for me.

 

[Montalban]

As I’ve said all along, Montalban, you’re just too smart for me.

This becomes your mantra. It’s a shame that in promoting Judaism there’s no more than that to offer.

Perhaps some other Jewish person, or person who’s studied Judaism would care to explain the Messianic proofs.

 

[Kaninchen]

This becomes your mantra. It’s a shame that in promoting Judaism there’s no more than that to offer.

We’re not promoting Judaism, we’re saying what it is that we believe.

Perhaps some other Jewish person, or person who’s studied Judaism would care to explain the Messianic proofs.

Perhaps they will. Perhaps somebody may come up with better approaches to asking.

 

[Valke2]

It’s not just ‘setting forth a list of conditions’ as I’ve explained, it depends on the particular conditions you set down, the one about gathering in Israel for instance doesn’t prove someone’s a Messiah. Evidentially you wish straw-man. :crying:

It doesn’t prove anyone is the Messiah, correct. It is a condition precedent to the Messianic Age or, alternatively, it is part of what makes the Messianic Age the Messianic Age.

I have stated that with regards to Israel any number of people would be able to claim that they’re the Messiah. I don’t believe I can make it any more simpler than I have.

There’s nothing stopping anyone from claiming they are the Messiah. They’ve done it before and I’m sure they’ll do it again.

I noted that the conditions to be met aren’t met by the Messiah himself - as it’s the people who themselves who make it happen.

Some of the conditions, yes.

Once they do, you won’t know which claimant is the Messiah, because they did nothing about those conditions.

But you are not addressing the conditions, such as him being a Leader of all the Jewish People, ushering in an age of world peace, rebuiilding the Temple…

It’s like if you had said “We’ll know the Messiah, because he’s able to do something” is very much different to saying “We’ll know the Messiah is here because something is done”.

Yes. When something is done we’ll know the Messiah is here, but we may need further information to determine who he is. That is what the other conditions will address.

 

[Valke2]

Maybe we should list the requirements, which can also be found in the Jews for Judaism website:

1. He must be Jewish: Deu. 17:15: …you may appoint a king over you, whom the Lord your God shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you."
2. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah. Gen. 49:10The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…
3. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son. 2 Sam. 7:12-13: And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…
4. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. Isaiah 11:12: And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. As you can see, there’s no question that he will be the leader of the Jews when this happens. So that although it may happen in a varitey of ways, whether is is simply jews choosing to return, or responding to his orders/arguments, there is no doubt as to who’s banner they will be returning under.
5. He must rebuild the Temple. Ezekiel 37:26-27: and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them…

More to follow.

 

[Valke2]

1. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - : Micha 4:3they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Again, he will rule. So that limits the pool of avialable candidates for Messiah.

1. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe all the mitzvot/commandments. Ezekiel 37:24: My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.
2. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God: Isaiah 66:23: And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the Lord.

This is all repeated in Eziekel 37

To date, no one has fullfilled all these conditions.

 

[Montalban]

It doesn’t prove anyone is the Messiah, correct. It is a condition precedent to the Messianic Age or, alternatively, it is part of what makes the Messianic Age the Messianic Age.

That’s what I suggested.

There’s nothing stopping anyone from claiming they are the Messiah. They’ve done it before and I’m sure they’ll do it again.

Except, for you, you’ve had in the past a means of weeding out the fakes. No such luck when the ‘messianic age’ comes

Some of the conditions, yes.

okay

But you are not addressing the conditions, such as him being a Leader of all the Jewish People, ushering in an age of world peace, rebuilding the Temple…

How would he be ‘leader of the Jewish people’? By being recognised as the Messiah. How would this happen? (see above) See, you’ve only hidden the problem by moving it a little.

Let’s look at the conditions. Suppose even a dozen people claim that they’re the Messiah…

Yes. When something is done we’ll know the Messiah is here, but we may need further information to determine who he is. That is what the other conditions will address.

Like that he’s from the House of David. Anyone will be able to claim that.

1. He must be Jewish

So this might take care of a few outsiders falsely claiming such.

1. He must be a member of the tribe of Judah

No way of knowing which claimant would be

1. He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son

ditto

1. He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel.

We’ve dealt with that one above.

1. He must rebuild the Temple.

Personally? Or, ‘cause’ to happen. I expect all claimants will take credit for this one.

1. He will rule at a time of world-wide peace

Same problem as the ‘gathering unto Israel’

Again, he will rule. So that limits the pool of available candidates for Messiah.

He will rule, only after he’s been declared Messiah, or before?

1. He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe all the mitzvot/commandments.

Same problem again

1. He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God:

All Jews, or all people?

For most of these conditions, they’re exterior to the Messiah himself. They feature the same problems as the ‘gathering unto Israel’. All you’d be able to do is know that this was the Messianic age. Any one of the claimants could say that they caused it. You simply pick one, and he must be the Messiah, because you’ve picked him

 

[Valke2]

I think we’ve played this one out. I feel there are things you are refusing to address and you feel that I’m repeating my arguments and ignoring yours. The answer to your last question is “all the people.”

 

[Montalban]

I think we’ve played this one out. I feel there are things you are refusing to address and you feel that I’m repeating my arguments and ignoring yours. The answer to your last question is “all the people.”

Indeed, the best you can show is that you’ll now when the Messianic age is upon us, but not to whom we could call Messiah. Things such as “Being of the House of David” wouldn’t point to any one in particular as you’d not know who was really of the House of David because the records have been lost.

And the conditions such as “gathering of the Jews” means that it’s up to the people to make the Messianic age occur.

Any one person could prevent the Messiah by refusing to go to Israel, so that makes the person greater than the Messiah.

Once you’re all settled that the Messianic age is upon you, by all agreeing to go to Israel, anyone you all choose to be the Messiah must therefore fit the other criteria such as being from the House of David, else they’d not be Messiah.

You see nothing wrong with that, ultimately, that’s up to you.

 

[Valke2]

lol