A question about "Transubstantiation"

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Under the subject of apologetics and defending the faith, I’ve been seeking the Lord for better understanding of the Eucharist, the body and blood of Jesus, sacrificed for us on our behalf and memorialized forever within the Liturgy of the Mass. Someone outside the faith, lacking understanding, might say that I’m worshipping a piece of bread and a cup of wine. Or in the case of adoration, a piece of bread within a monstrance looking very idolatrous.

I asked the Lord, “…what should I say in response to such a statement?” He asked me in reply, “…are you?” I said, “of course not, I worship you.” Then He opened my mind to the reality of what it is I worship. I “see” bread, I “taste” wine. In reality, it is Him. Body, Soul & Divinity. He took me back to the night He was betrayed. As Father Felicien was speaking those sacred words of Jesus and sanctifying the gifts, transforming them into the precious body and blood of Jesus, I was suddenly taken back to the Last supper. Jesus was presenting us with a most precious gift, a substantial way of remaining with us, being the forever bread from heaven, not just the bread from heaven given only at the last supper, but every time the mass is celebrated in memory of Him, in remembering the very moment He gave Himself to us, forever. It becomes, GOD in the flesh once again. Something for our human senses to experience mixed with faith.

My non-catholic but Christian husband said, “you mean the Holy Spirit?” I said, “You cannot separate the Holy Sprit from the Son or the Father.” The three remain one, the Holy Trinity. In the Eucharist I can honestly say, “My Lord and My God! It is you!” It is a supernatural mystery of God. It cannot be explained by or for the rational finite mind. It has to be seen through the eyes of the spirit by the will of the Holy Spirit.
 
StillCatholic said:
Under the subject of apologetics and defending the faith, I’ve been seeking the Lord for better understanding of the Eucharist, the body and blood of Jesus, sacrificed for us on our behalf and memorialized forever within the Liturgy of the Mass. Someone outside the faith, lacking understanding, might say that I’m worshipping a piece of bread and a cup of wine. Or in the case of adoration, a piece of bread within a monstrance looking very idolatrous.

I asked the Lord, “…what should I say in response to such a statement?” He asked me in reply, “…are you?” I said, “of course not, I worship you.” Then He opened my mind to the reality of what it is I worship. I “see” bread, I “taste” wine. In reality, it is Him. Body, Soul & Divinity. He took me back to the night He was betrayed. As Father Felicien was speaking those sacred words of Jesus and sanctifying the gifts, transforming them into the precious body and blood of Jesus, I was suddenly taken back to the Last supper. Jesus was presenting us with a most precious gift, a substantial way of remaining with us, being the forever bread from heaven, not just the bread from heaven given only at the last supper, but every time the mass is celebrated in memory of Him, in remembering the very moment He gave Himself to us, forever. It becomes, GOD in the flesh once again. Something for our human senses to experience mixed with faith.

My non-catholic but Christian husband said, “you mean the Holy Spirit?” I said, “You cannot separate the Holy Sprit from the Son or the Father.” The three remain one, the Holy Trinity. In the Eucharist I can honestly say, “My Lord and My God! It is you!” It is a supernatural mystery of God. It cannot be explained by or for the rational finite mind. It has to be seen through the eyes of the spirit by the will of the Holy Spirit.
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Further more, this is why non Catholics are not to share in this sacrament with us. The scriptures warn us of the importance of partaking only in the right state of grace, discerning the body and blood of the Lord and recognizing the sacrifice for us that it represents.
 
RomanCatholic66 said:
and yet the Trinitarian belief also had philosophical derivatives… :eek:
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The Council used the term but gave it a different connotation, somewhat as the Supreme Court has the term “privacy.” That is, they re-defined the term. Arius seems to have been like “modernist.
 
RomanCatholic66 said:
This was a ne line question. Compare it to your answer and tell me which makes more sense to you?

***“When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story.” ***
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Do you mean the term, or the idea? In any case, A poem by St. Thomas tells us as much any argument:

Godhead here in hiding, whom I do adore
Masked by these bare shadows, shape and nothinbg more,
See, Lord, at they service low lies here a heart
Lost, all lost in wonder at the God thou art.

Seeing, touching, tasting are in thee deceived;
How says trust hearing? that shall be believed;Wgat God’s Son has told me, take for truth I do;
Truth himself truly or there’s nothing true.
 
RomanCatholic66 said:
When, where and how was Transubstantiation Defined and by whom? I am getting bits and pieces online but not the full story.

Anyone? 🤷
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Transubstantiation was dogmatically defined by the Bishops of the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in .

Pope Paul VI wrote in Mysterium Fedei (Sep 3, 1965):3. In order to make the indissoluble bond that exists between faith and devotion perfectly clear, the Fathers of the Council decided, in the course of reaffirming the doctrine that the Church has always held and taught and that was solemnly defined by the Council of Trent, to offer the following compendium of truths as an introduction to their treatment of the Most Holy Mystery of the Eucharist…
  1. To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51)
(50) Cf. Encyclical letter Mirae caritatis; Acta Leonis XIII, XXII (1902-1903), 123.
(51) Cf. Council of Trent, Decree on the Most Holy Eucharist, c. 4 and canon 2.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium_en.html

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct13.html

The ANGLICAN/ROMAN CATHOLIC INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION has commented: In its preparatory work the Commission examined with care the definition of the Council of Trent (DS 1642, 1652), repeated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) (n. 1376). Though the Council of Trent states that the Soul and Divinity of Christ are present with his body and blood in the eucharist, it does not speak of the conversion of the earthly realities of bread and wine into the Soul and Divinity of Christ (DS 1651). The presence of the Soul is by natural concomitantia and the Divinity by virtue of the hypostatic union. The Response speaks of a ‘substantial’ presence of Christ, maintaining that this is the result of a substantial change in the elements. By its footnote on transubstantiation the Commission made clear that it was in no way dismissing the belief that “God, acting in the eucharist, effects a change in the inner reality of the elements”… and that a mysterious and radical change takes place. Paul VI in Mysterium Fidei (AAS 57, 1965) did not deny, the legitimacy of fresh ways of expressing this change even by using new words, provided that they kept and reflected what transubstantiation was intended to express.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/angl-comm-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_199309_clarifications-arcici_en.html
 
Here’s what doesn’t make sense–many Protestants have no problem in believing in their own souls which they can not see–but are absolutely confounded and perplexed about substances which you also can’t see.

What kind of sense does that make?

Why is it so hard to grasp the concept that all the things we do see are supported by SUBSTANCES?

What’s so hard about that?

The soul which we can’t see supports the body.

What is so hard about believing that there can be substances that support what we see?

The only thing different about the Eucharist is that what would normally be the substances of bread or wine–supporting what our eyes see as bread and wine have become the substances of Jesus instead.

In other words there aren’t any substances of bread and wine left.

I don’t see what’s so hard about that.

Look–if you only believe what your eyes see then you don’t really have faith!–your spiritual awareness is no different than a dog or a cat!

Not only that but you CHOOSE to disbelieve Jesus.

Look–WHATEVER Jesus tells you is the TRUTH–it doesn’t matter what your senses say!

And WHY did Jesus MAKE it that way?

To SEPARATE those with REAL faith from those who believe in what their senses say with NO vision of those things which are UNSEEN.

Real faith is believing in the unseen without seeing it!

That’s why Jesus said if you don’t eat His body and drink His blood “you do not have life in you.”

That’s why the Romans called the early christians cannibals.

If Protestants were living in those days they wouldn’t be accused of being cannibals because THEY DON’T BELIEVE in eating the body and drinking the blood.

They just believe in symbols like any other pagan!

They don’t believe in eating and drinking Jesus!

Look–there is no middle ground–either you eat and drink Jesus or you don’t!

If Jesus IS there instead of bread and wine that your eyes see then if you’re not Catholic then you should become Catholic!

If Jesus ISN’T there then Catholics are bread and wine worshiping idolators!

Either it IS Jesus or it ISN’T! There is no in between!

The only thing a Protestant has to ask themselves is would God allow His Catholic Church for 1500 years to LIE to people saying Jesus was there when He wasn’t and would Jesus let all those people in churches for 1500 years die and go to Hell for being idolators?!!

The answer to that is plainly NO!!!

IF God allowed that then the gates of Hell would prevail against His church and that would make Jesus a liar which is impossible!

Don’t be afraid Protestants. While it is true that if you convert to the Catholic faith some things won’t be as EASY. You’ll have to confess mortal sins to a priest–it would always be possible for you to sin–die in a state of mortal sin and go to Hell–

AND

you’ll have to believe in substances that you can’t see with your eyes and you’ll have to believe that you’re eating and drinking Jesus.

What will you get? JESUS!!! His body, blood, soul, and divinity IN YOU!

You say you want a “Personal relationship with Christ”?

Nothing is more personal than that–it is a taste of heaven itself here on Earth!

When you confess mortal sins to a priest you’ll be confessing your sins through the priest to Jesus and the priest as Jesus’ instrument will forgive you and you will have the certainty of hearing another human’s voice when you are absolved of your sins.

This is just the start of the wonderful blessings you will receive from becoming Catholic–there are five other sacraments that will make your life HAPPIER and also help you get closer to Jesus and avoid Hell!

I’m a convert–there was a time when I truly was INVINCIBLY ignorant–I didn’t know because I hadn’t heard the truth so I can sympathize with you to an extent.

Course for many years I didn’t seek out the truth–I thought I knew everything–my religion worked for me–or so I thought–so why change?

If you love the Lord with your whole mind and are open then you will find the Catholic faith and it will be the best thing that ever happened to you.

If you really want to be close to Jesus then BELIEVE in what you don’t see.

Why? Because Jesus said so!
 
Vico said:
Transubstantiation was dogmatically defined by the Bishops of the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in .

Pope Paul VI wrote in Mysterium Fedei (Sep 3, 1965):3. In order to make the indissoluble bond that exists between faith and devotion perfectly clear, the Fathers of the Council decided, in the course of reaffirming the doctrine that the Church has always held and taught and that was solemnly defined by the Council of Trent, to offer the following compendium of truths as an introduction to their treatment of the Most Holy Mystery of the Eucharist…
  1. To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51)
(50) Cf. Encyclical letter Mirae caritatis; Acta Leonis XIII, XXII (1902-1903), 123.
(51) Cf. Council of Trent, Decree on the Most Holy Eucharist, c. 4 and canon 2.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium_en.html

history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct13.html

The ANGLICAN/ROMAN CATHOLIC INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION has commented: In its preparatory work the Commission examined with care the definition of the Council of Trent (DS 1642, 1652), repeated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (1992) (n. 1376). Though the Council of Trent states that the Soul and Divinity of Christ are present with his body and blood in the eucharist, it does not speak of the conversion of the earthly realities of bread and wine into the Soul and Divinity of Christ (DS 1651). The presence of the Soul is by natural concomitantia and the Divinity by virtue of the hypostatic union. The Response speaks of a ‘substantial’ presence of Christ, maintaining that this is the result of a substantial change in the elements. By its footnote on transubstantiation the Commission made clear that it was in no way dismissing the belief that “God, acting in the eucharist, effects a change in the inner reality of the elements”… and that a mysterious and radical change takes place. Paul VI in Mysterium Fidei (AAS 57, 1965) did not deny, the legitimacy of fresh ways of expressing this change even by using new words, provided that they kept and reflected what transubstantiation was intended to express.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/angl-comm-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_199309_clarifications-arcici_en.html
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Thank you!!! You have answered excellently!!! Exactly what I needed! 👍
 
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