A Question Among Friends

[katpink]

I have a question about John 19:25-27.

Post crucifixion of Jesus–

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then he said the the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”

One of my Baptist friends thinks this is Jesus denouncing his mother, and I argued that he knew he was going to his eternal life and had John take care of his beloved mother. I wanted to get opinions. Please argue your opinion.

 

[jrabs]

katpink:

I have a question about John 19:25-27.

Post crucifixion of Jesus–

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then he said the the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”

One of my Baptist friends thinks this is Jesus denouncing his mother, and I argued that he knew he was going to his eternal life and had John take care of his beloved mother. I wanted to get opinions. Please argue your opinion.

You are correct. And welcome to the forum.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

katpink:

I have a question about John 19:25-27.

Post crucifixion of Jesus–

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then he said the the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”

One of my Baptist friends thinks this is Jesus denouncing his mother, and I argued that he knew he was going to his eternal life and had John take care of his beloved mother. I wanted to get opinions. Please argue your opinion.

You are correct. And BTW - why would Jesus possibly need to denounce his mother in violation of the 4th Commandment, at the hour of His death? This is about the worst case of esegesis I’ve heard of to date. Your baptist friend is obviously reading her prejudices into the passage because it is a strong scriptural argument in favor of Marian devotion. Your friend’s position is just plain silly in addition to being unscriptural. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus suggest that Mary is not his mother, nor is any reason given for Jesus denouncing her after she followed him faithfully through his life and ministry.

 

[TOME]

Katpink, I would like to address you Thread in two parts, and I’ll try to be brief - but no promises. Both parts will address the human side of this passage.

First, your friend evidently isn’t familar with the culture of 1st Century A.D. (or CE = Common Era) Palestine and Jewish culture in regards to the rights of women especially widows.

Simply, they had few or almost no rights. A women wasn’t allowed to work and if she was a widow with no children who could support her, her only alternative besides starving was to depend totally on Charity which normally meant begging (think of the grief of the widow of Nain, in Luke, and how her plight literally moved Jesus to tears. I think in this passage we find a very human Jesus being moved not only because of this widow’s situation, but because of His concern knowing that His own mother could be facing a similar situation in the near future).

By turning to John, the way He did, Jesus was showing His Mother the greatest concern for her welfare. She wouldn’t be reduced to begging. If you ask me, that is a sign of a Son’s love, not as your friend suggest, a sign that Jesus was denouncing His mother.

Secondly, from Jesus’ declaration and John’s response, this is an indication that Mary had no other children. If she had children, they, especially the males, would have been obligated by law and culture, to care for their widowed mother, which had been Jesus’ obligation before His death. Given the references of Mary’s presence at various events during Jesus’ public ministry, I think this indicates He had met His responsibilities towards his mother. Therefore, this passage points to the Doctrine of the Church that Mary was Ever Virgin and had no children by Joseph.

 

[Todd_Easton]

Jesus’ use of the word Woman is a back reference to Eve, the first woman and mother of the living. Jesus, the Second Adam, refers to Mary as Woman because she is the Second Eve, the mother of the spiritually living, of all the beloved disciples of Jesus, of all those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus (Rev 12:17),

 

[Della]

katpink:

I have a question about John 19:25-27.

Post crucifixion of Jesus–

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then he said the the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”

One of my Baptist friends thinks this is Jesus denouncing his mother, and I argued that he knew he was going to his eternal life and had John take care of his beloved mother. I wanted to get opinions. Please argue your opinion.

Let’s see, the woman who said “Yes” to the Incarnation risking being divorced or stoned, traveled a long distance while “heavy with child” so that he would be born in David’s ancestral city, gave birth to the Son of God, took him to be dedicated at the Temple, met with the 3 magi (who bowed down before her and her Son), fled with him into Egypt, brought him home and care for him, meditating on the meaning of it all, lost him in Jerusalem, brought him home after being told she would lose him (doing his Father’s business, which was the work of salvation), being the one who instigated his first public miracle (thus making his disciples believe in him), followed him faithfully all through his ministry, and watched helplessly as her Son was driven through the streets like a criminal with a bloody back and then STOOD at the foot of his Cross? You mean that unworthy creature that Jesus just had to “denounce”? Right.

 

[Zooey]

Oh, my…I think your friend must be a very angry person, & a very sad one…Also, I think he does not understand the Bible very well!
The word “woman” is used here the way we would say “ma’am”. It is the respectful way for a woman to be addressed–especially in public. By calling His beloved mother “woman”, our Lord is showing how much he honors & respects her.
And–as had been said, He is insuring that she will never be left alone, that she will be not only “seen to”, but loved and honored when He is no longer here on earth to care for her.
Think about this for a minute: In the ordinary course of things, a son would lovingly care for a mother for the rest of her life. But Jesus knows that He will not be with His mother. He is dying on the cross, & yes, He knows He will rise again, but He also knows that He will be ascending to heaven, leaving her alone. So He appoints John as her guardian throughout her life here, until she rejoins her Child in heaven.
I do really think that your friend has some issues…I worry that he feels this way. It is a very serious thing to suggest that Mary needed “denouncing”.It is IMHO actually sacrilegious to accuse the Lord Jesus of not honoring & loving His mother. That is accusing our Lord of sin…This person who said this to you, needs our prayers.
God bless.

 

[katpink]

Thanks for all your answers. My friend is indeed not an angry man, he is very kind and gentle. He was worried about the thoughts of John in the Bible, and if Jesus had in fact denounced his mother. He felt betrayed and hurt, and has been seeking answers about that specific passage for a while. He thanks you also for your answers.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Saint Luke’s Gospel, Chapter One: 46-49

46 And Mary said:

"My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold**, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.**
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.

 

[BibleReader]

katpink:

I have a question about John 19:25-27.

Post crucifixion of Jesus–

“Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, ‘Woman, behold, your son.’ Then he said the the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother.’ And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.”

One of my Baptist friends thinks this is Jesus denouncing his mother, and I argued that he knew he was going to his eternal life and had John take care of his beloved mother. I wanted to get opinions. Please argue your opinion.

Your plaintext interp is correct.

But, Scripture tends to speak at the plaintext level AND at the *sensus plenior *level at the same time.

The sensus plenior meaning is marvelous to behold.

In John 2, the other place where Jesus calls Mary “woman,” you see (1) Mary INTERCEDING; (2) Jesus telling Mary that it’s none of her business and her timing is bad; (3) Mary confidently assuring the wedding party that He will listen to her intercession, anyway; (4) JESUS DOING PRECISELY WHAT MARY ASKS, ANYWAY, THOUGH IT IS NONE OF HER BUSINESS AND HER TIMING IS BAD.

In other words, you are looking at the gospel’s assurance that Mary is indeed an intercessor.

“Woman” in John 2 is her TITLE as “intercessor.”

In John 19, when Christ says to Mary, “WOMAN, behold your son,” He is officially commissioning her “the Church’s intercessor.”

Your Baptist friend is dead wrong.

 

[JimG]

I fail to see how anyone could possibly get the meaning of “denouncing his mother,” from the passage quoted. Especially since John makes it explicit that he understood he was to take her into his home–as his mother!

 

[ladybugmom]

Oh you have all warmed my Heart!

 

[Jade]

TOME:

Katpink, I would like to address you Thread in two parts, and I’ll try to be brief - but no promises. Both parts will address the human side of this passage.

First, your friend evidently isn’t familar with the culture of 1st Century A.D. (or CE = Common Era) Palestine and Jewish culture in regards to the rights of women especially widows.

Simply, they had few or almost no rights. A women wasn’t allowed to work and if she was a widow with no children who could support her, her only alternative besides starving was to depend totally on Charity which normally meant begging (think of the grief of the widow of Nain, in Luke, and how her plight literally moved Jesus to tears. I think in this passage we find a very human Jesus being moved not only because of this widow’s situation, but because of His concern knowing that His own mother could be facing a similar situation in the near future).

By turning to John, the way He did, Jesus was showing His Mother the greatest concern for her welfare. She wouldn’t be reduced to begging. If you ask me, that is a sign of a Son’s love, not as your friend suggest, a sign that Jesus was denouncing His mother.

Secondly, from Jesus’ declaration and John’s response, this is an indication that Mary had no other children. If she had children, they, especially the males, would have been obligated by law and culture, to care for their widowed mother, which had been Jesus’ obligation before His death. Given the references of Mary’s presence at various events during Jesus’ public ministry, I think this indicates He had met His responsibilities towards his mother. Therefore, this passage points to the Doctrine of the Church that Mary was Ever Virgin and had no children by Joseph.

Tome,
What a beautiful response! I never saw it that way before! I’ll have to remember this next time my non catholic friends ask me abour Mary.

Thank you!!

Jade.