A Question for Catholics and Protestants

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Ufam Tobie wroteHowever some would like to omit the “Good Works” to do their dirty deeds and still say they are saved by faith alone…but that is another Thread
cooterhein wrote You’re wrong about this, but you’re right in saying it is another thread. You are wrong, though. Nothing personal, but you are.
Nothing personal, but you’re wrong about this. Faith Alone is, sure enough, a 16th century invention. There must be a jillion threads about Sola Fide at CAF. You could look them up if you wish. Or start yet another one.

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone James 2:24.
 
Hello cooterhein.

Indeed our salvation comes from God – no one truly ‘earns’ salvation, through good works or anything else, for it is “by grace alone.” Nonetheless, salvation is NOT by faith alone. How could it be? – that notion didn’t even exist until the 16th century. The Bible tells us repeatedly the necessity of good works for salvation. Look at our Lord’s words in Matthew chapter 25-- to those who had fed the hungry and clothed the naked, He says “Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”; to those who had failed in these WORKS of mercy, He says “Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” This particular passage makes NO mention of faith being lacking in those who were to be condemned. I could cite many more examples from the Bible proving the necessity of works for salvation.
I appreciate your efforts and your passion for this topic; however, as the OP has stated and I have re-affirmed, that is not a topic for this thread.
In response to another part of your post… Would you say that you have a personal relationship with your mother? I would think so.
I happen to know her personally, so yes, I have a personal relationship with her. If I were adopted as an infant and didn’t know her personally, though, I would not have a personal relationship with her. The fact that I have her genes is neither necessary nor sufficient for establishing a personal relationship; that’s determined by whether or not we know each other personally over any given period of time.
So why not the Mother of our Savior?
Because I don’t know her personally. I know who she is and I know things about her, but I’ve never seen her or met her or interacted with her in any way. If I had been adopted and never known my birth mother, my non-relationship with Mary would be similar in many ways to my lack of a personal relationship with a biological mother that I’ve never met or spoken to but only heard things about. For example, let’s say I never met my birth mother but I have a beaded necklace that reminds me of her and helps me meditate on thoughts of her when I pray. Even if I do that, I still can’t have a personal relationship with her unless and until we meet up and interact in some way.

Additionally, Mary doesn’t know me. She doesn’t even know about me. How can one person have a personal relationship with another when one party is unaware of the existence of the other?
Catholics don’t claim that it’s the same as one’s relationship with the Trinity (Who dwells within us, as you said). But clearly Mary is worthy of a personal relationship.
If I had a personal relationship with Mary, that would be nice. But I don’t. That’s just how it is. It’s the same thing I would say if I was adopted as an infant without ever meeting my birth mom.
And it no more detracts from your relationship with God than does your relationship with your family here on earth.
If I had such a relationship- which I don’t- I would agree with you. Since I don’t have this relationship, I can neither agree nor disagree. I have no relationship with Mary, so the question of what it might detract from is purely academic. Academically speaking, though, I suppose we can agree on this to some extent.
 
Additionally, Mary doesn’t know me. She doesn’t even know about me. How can one person have a personal relationship with another when one party is unaware of the existence of the other?
Of course she knows about you. Her Son talks about you all the time to her. (He loves you, remember? And you have a relationship with Him, right?) She prays for you every day.
 
Of course she knows about you. Her Son talks about you all the time to her. (He loves you, remember? And you have a relationship with Him, right?) She prays for you every day.
Yes, I do have a relationship with God (who loves me), but the rest is highly speculative. And in my opinion, highly unlikely.
 
Of course she knows about you. Her Son talks about you all the time to her. (He loves you, remember? And you have a relationship with Him, right?) She prays for you every day.
I should say one other thing about this, too- even if Jesus talks to Mary about me, and even if she prays for me, that doesn’t mean I have a personal relationship with her. If I may, I’ll flesh this out for you a little bit more.

There’s this guy from Mozambique that I have a personal relationship with. He’s the president of an organization called More Than a Mile Deep. I don’t know if it’s considered good form for me to post his entire name or any personal information, but his first name is Andre and he became a Christian in 1989 (ten years in advance of the fall of Communism in that country) because of a missionary couple that is closely affiliated with the church I grew up in. (After spending decades in Africa, they returned to America and attended/taught at my church until the male half of the couple died a few years back while the female half continues to attend there…but that’s a different story). Andre went on to become a student of the Bible. A student in the sense that he got numerous advanced theological degrees. By the turn of the century, he went from being a student of the now-deceased missionary to being a colleague. He continues to be an educator at the seminary level.

He’s also gone on to be the president of the aforementioned organization. It’s dedicated to improving Bible literacy in Africa, particularly among new-ish Christians in parts of the world where evangelism is advancing well ahead of doctrine. Christianity is spreading fast in Africa, but there’s not much depth. Christianity is often described as “a mile wide and an inch deep.” Andre- and the organization he founded- is committed to the goal of making it a mile deep and then some.

I have a personal relationship with this Andre person. I have this relationship because I’ve met him, talked to him, and gotten to know him. Matter of fact, I spent a good deal of time talking to him last week. We had lunch with some other people, he met up with a different group of people after that, and he was back in Mozambique by Monday. (He was only here for about 10 days).

Andre’s work in Africa takes him all over the place- primarily Mozambique, South Africa, Kenya, and Somalia. He knows a lot of people there. I’d venture to guess he has a lot more personal relationships with Africans than I do.

Sometimes I pray for some of those Africans. Sometimes I pray for specific people that Andre (or another missionary) has told me about. Sometimes I pray for groups of people they know quite well, although I haven’t met them. These could be family members I haven’t met, or people they work with on a regular basis, or a local member of the community with some kind of prayer-worthy situation.

But Andre is the one I have a personal relationship with. That’s because I know him personally. Some of his family members- even if I know things about them and pray for them- are not people I have a personal relationship with because I don’t know them personally. Some of his co-workers, and most of the other people affiliated with More Than a Mile Deep across a half-dozen different African countries- I pray for them in general, and I may pray for some of them specifically at times. But again, Andre is the one I have a personal relationship with. The other people- as long as I haven’t met them and gotten to know them personally- are not people I have a personal relationship with. I’m very confident that the vast majority of these people are worthy of a personal relationship, but I just don’t have that with them. They’re in Africa, I’m in America, and we haven’t ever spoken or met. In that regard, they are not like Andre, who I caught up with last week.

Getting back to the Mary situation, though. In this example, Andre would be (roughly) analogous to God, at least as far as personal relationships go. Contrast this with Mary- even if she has heard things about me second-hand (which is doubtful) and even if she does pray for me specifically on a regular basis (which is unlikely), the best kind of relationship she can have with me is the kind that I have with the friends, family, and co-workers of Andre that I have never met with or spoken to (and probably never will). And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just the way it is.
 
God willing, I will consecrate myself to Mary this upcoming Dec 8 as her slave according to the teaching of St. Louis de Montfort.

totalconsecration.ageofmary.com/

I’ve prayed to Jesus for a deeper understanding of why I should have a relationship with his Holy Mother, and have asked that he grant to me that relationship. I have prayed that Jesus reveal his Blessed Mother to me, that he introduce her to me, and that he show me how to love her. I really did pray that, several times, late at night, in the adoration chapel in the presence of Jesus enthroned in the monstrance.

God then sent a franciscan priest into my life briefly, who mentioned Total Consecration to the Virgin Mary and the work of St. Louis de Montfort. 😃 Just last week I found a copy of “Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary” in the adoration chapel - I had no idea that this liturgy existed and so have ordered a copy.

And so ask I have asked, God has granted, and I can do nothing but follow. I’ll continue as far as God desires me to go, until he bars my path and stops me.

-Tim-
Hey, I’m planning to consecrate myself to the Blessed Virgin Mary on December 8th as well! I’ve been going through Total Devotion and I’ve also been going through the Legion of Mary Handbook as well. To Jesus through Mary!
 
God saves me.
Indeed. This is very Catholic of you to say, cooter! 👍

However, Mary saves you, too.
And the Church saves you, too.
As do your faith and good works.
As does the Communion of Saints.

In fact, do you not agree with St. Paul when he says that he (Paul) saves?

(See Romans 11:14)

We are all co-redemptors in our union with the One Body of Christ, and St. Paul proclaims this to you even today.
 
As they say on Facebook when it comes to Mary- it’s complicated:)

I am a Methodist now RCIA candidate and I have come a long way. I never really thought much of Mary I have to say in terms of my salvation for most of my life. She was a teenaged Jewish girl who was chosen to give birth to the Son of God and after that I can’t say I thought of her much, though I did have a Catholic grandmother who loved her and called for her in times of stress like thunderstorms down the shore. But her daughter, my mom, also a Mary was raised Methodist and though one of the most Godly women I have ever known never really taught us about Mary. My grandparents were a mixed marriage and back in the 20’s there was not much recourse for that so my Catholic grandmother actually attended daily Mass for 35 years as an excommunicated Catholic until she finally had their marriage validated but I digress:)

Anyway, I first felt a pull toward Mary watching the Passion of the Christ film as the only way I could get through it was to keep my eyes on her and imagine what she was going through. But I was still fully Protestant and other than the pull of one mother watching another suffer I did not give her much thought after that. This last Advent though which was few months before I began my Lent search which ended up with my decision to become Catholic I felt the need to rediscover the real meaning of the season and I remember feeling a real pull again to imagine what she went though and I remember thinking that her life is what a surrendered life looks like and I really felt real admiration for her.

So long story short, I decided after a long dark Lent night of the soul to become Catholic but I still had my issues with Mary in terms of praying to her. But gradually my heart began to melt. I heard Gus Lloyd on the Catholic Church describe the relationship that God has with us is one of family and every family needs a mother. I began to cry when I heard this as I had lost my own mother Mary at this point as my mother had passed. I began to pray the Rosary and to try to see all of the mysteries of through her eyes each morning and I began to experience a real sense of peace and calm in my life. Just a more even approach to life as I tend to be a real “control freak” and I had actually prayed and listened to enough TV Bible teachers trying to get to this point but all I can say is saying the Rosary each day has accomplished in two months what four years of Bible study alone could not do for me. I really feel like I have her on my team if that makes any sense. I believe she was praying for me all along but now that I know she is there it really helps. And I feel closer to Jesus than ever too- loving Mary doesn’t change who God is and who I am in Christ- it just means I have a “most gracious advocate” who is praying for me too and we all know from the wedding feast at Cana that Jesus listens to his Mother:)

As a post script, I am married to a Catholic man and just as it took 35 years for my grandmother to be accepted back into the Church fully we are married 35 years and we will finally share the same beliefs and he is coming back into the Church. Not sure which Mary was working on that one- my grandmother, mother or my Blessed Mother but there are no coincidences.

Blessings,

Val
 
Mary really isn’t in the equation for me. Christ is to be our all in all…In Him we live and move and share our being. I acknowledge her as a fellow believer…as a role model…“do what ever he tells you to do…”

In a mystical way…I am joined with her and with all who are joined in the Light…we share the same Light…we share the same Father. We both are members of His Body…she made the Journey into the Presence before me…one Day…"we shall know as we are known’…
 
I hope you wash your hands then, before you cut the London Broils and grind up the Chuck.
Thank you.

These hands foam in and foam out more often than a doctor’s, especially when I am doing what is called ‘performing the harvest’ with all of the blood, dung, and gut-juices.

I would hate to grind the chuck. It deserved to be made into roast beef and nicely barded delmonico steaks, or seasoned salted and air-dried into bresaola better still. Alas, sometimes they want it ground. 'Tis a pity. Ground-chuck is nowhere near as noble as the beast it comes from unless; that is, it is made into proper polpette.

Maybe there is a prayer that can consecrate my knives. 'Cause you know The Immaculate Heart was pierced with a blade.

I think, far too often I pierce Her Heart with my knives.
 
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