A Question for Liturgists

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pprimeau1976

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This is a question for all who care about liturgy in all of its forms.

How do you try to live St. Paul’s description of love in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 when it comes to ways in which we celebrate/pray the Mass/Divine Liturgy?

Here is the New American Bible:

NAB
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

NIV
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

(The NIV link will allow you to select multiple translations and languages.👍 )
 
Wow, 90 people read this and could not say anything?

Consider the following:

If love is not seeking its own interests, is insisting on a particular form, music, posture a loving act? From what I see in liturgical forums is alot of people seeking their own interests. I see this behavior from people who favor contemporary and even traditional songs/postures, etc.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
If love is not seeking its own interests, is insisting on a particular form, music, posture a loving act? From what I see in liturgical forums is alot of people seeking their own interests. I see this behavior from people who favor contemporary and even traditional songs/postures, etc.
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Seeking to impose superior liturgy is an act of love. It is part of the duty of man to enact just and moral laws in all spheres.

Many contemporary songs, music genres, customs and postures are evil when used at Mass, and deserve reprobation.
 
Wow, 90 people read this and could not say anything?
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That’s because there is nothing to argue about. 😃

Ok, I’ll reply, for what it’s worth. You are pretty much on the mark with your observations, but what can we do about it? Those who are ill-disposed to hear these words will sweep them under the rug and ignore them. Those who “hear” the message usually live it as best they can. I think Christ had the same problem — continuing the message of love ultimately brought about His death, but nevertheless, we must never quit proclaiming it, while practicing what we preach.
 
Because responding to this thread in any way will only get you beat up.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
This is a question for all who care about liturgy in all of its forms.

How do you try to live St. Paul’s description of love in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 when it comes to ways in which we celebrate/pray the Mass/Divine Liturgy?

Here is the New American Bible:

NAB
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

NIV
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

(The NIV link will allow you to select multiple translations and languages.👍 )
Click to expand...
I find it amusing there is so much focus on the music in the Mass and how the congregation wants it and how everyone that doesn’t like it is just being uncharitable. Even though those that do not like it are the congregation too. Personally I see this as going both ways and maybe the focus should be more on praising God than satisfying ourselves with liturgy. Maybe we should be more focused on loving God and worshipping him the way He wants and not what ever music we like.
 
Anytime you have people’s ‘(name removed by moderator)ut’ into something you automatically have the potential for disunity and discord.

I hope this doesn’t sound snarky, but it appears to me that all this emphasis on getting people ‘involved’ is the major reason for the huge discord we have in the current liturgy (outside the TLM).

While it is possible that there are problems in a TLM they are more extrinsic. All the ‘formulae’ is there, the parameters are firm. In the vernacular mass, the formulae are much looser and the parameters are fluid.

The prayers in Latin might be ‘rushed’ by a priest (although I never recall that happening, many people have said they have seen or heard this). But it is almost unheard of that the prayers were CHANGED or omited.

Whereas the prayers in the vernacular mass not only have legitimate places for the priest and occasionally a lector (lay) to ‘personalize’ (Father has options A. B. C. after the Introit, there are up to a dozen Eucharistic prayers though they also are supposed to have some regulation to them, Father may choose to have or omit the sign of peace before the Lamb of God, the petitions before the offertory may be ‘customized’ to the Church)–there is also the opportunity, which in my personal experience has been utilized by EVERY SINGLE PRIEST I HAVE EVER HEARD in the last 35 years, to make additional changes.

When Father likes to ‘add’ words to the approved Eucharistic prayers, choose something outside the 4 approved responses after the consecration, change the words of the Creed, omit words, add on a Hail Mary after the Creed, demand the congregation use the orans posture, hold hands at the Our Father, address God as “Father-Mother”, walk around at the homily, set up projectors, use canned music, change the words of the consecration, use leavened/sweetened bread for ‘eucharist’, have the ‘young people’ come up around the altar, announce that the loaves and fishes was ’ a miracle of sharing’, banishes the choir and organ, which had existed at one Mass with a guitar group at another Mass, in favor of the guitars ONLY even though the former group was perfectly content to continue and NO ONE had complained; wash the feet of women on Holy Thursday, counsel people that they should follow their conscience on divorce, abortion, fornication and not ‘Church rules’, encourage non Catholics to receive communion at Mass in the interests of ‘unity’, etc., there are a host of people who ‘support’ Father’s autonomy to do this.

But when Father announces that communion should only be taken by Catholics in a state of grace, banishes the ‘crowd’ from the altar, asks people to share the sign of peace soberly only to those right next to them, follows the prayers without deviation, adds on more confession times, informs his flock that the Church has teachings on issues like divorce etc. that are not to be deviated from as they are there for a good reason, and wants to guitar group to stop playing outside its parameters (IOW, stop doing rinky tink trills during the consecration), the roof gets raised as people voice their outrage that Father is ‘messing up’ THEIR MASS.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
Wow, 90 people read this and could not say anything?

Consider the following:

If love is not seeking its own interests, is insisting on a particular form, music, posture a loving act? From what I see in liturgical forums is alot of people seeking their own interests. I see this behavior from people who favor contemporary and even traditional songs/postures, etc.
Click to expand...
Holy Mother Church insists on particular forms, music and posture. Is that not loving?
 
az_4_faith said:
Holy Mother Church insists on particular forms, music and posture. Is that not loving?
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There are forms that must be met. And I am not advocating the priest improvising in any way because that’s not right. I am referring to us sheep mainly.

A friend once said to me that the Church is like G.M. - everybody has their ways of preaching and worshiping. Is this a bad thing if it leads someone to God? I don’t see the problems starting at the top with the Pope and with the Bishops. I see that there is more of a problem at the bottom.

That’s just my opinion though.
 
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