That quote is from Martin Chemnitz, a 16th century Lutheran (Loci Theologici, Vol. 2, p. 694).In this the papists berate Luther with the charge of removing the word “catholic” from the creed in the German language, in order that he might impose his own name also on the assembly of the church. But I reply that it is true that even before the time of Luther here and there this article of the Creed was recited thus: Ich glaube ein heilige Christliche Kirche. Here the word “Christian” has the same meaning as “catholic,” because the name “Christian” was spread throughout the whole world. And it is found this way in ancient manuscripts. Since Luther left the matter as he found it, he is falsely accused of fraudulently rejecting that word “catholic.”
I don’t know, Peter. I’ll just say I prefer the use of the term “catholic” in the creeds, as opposed to “Christian” which my Church uses.That quote is from Martin Chemnitz, a 16th century Lutheran (Loci Theologici, Vol. 2, p. 694).
I don’t really have any problem with Christians who prefer to translate the Greek word katholiken (“universal”) rather than transliterating it; but my question is, wasn’t there a German word meaning “universal” that they could have used, rather than translating katholiken as Christliche (“Christian”)?
Peter,That quote is from Martin Chemnitz, a 16th century Lutheran (Loci Theologici, Vol. 2, p. 694).
I don’t really have any problem with Christians who prefer to translate the Greek word katholiken (“universal”) rather than transliterating it; but my question is, wasn’t there a German word meaning “universal” that they could have used, rather than translating katholiken as Christliche (“Christian”)?
From what I understand, Christian was used instead of Catholic to avoid any confusion on the laypeople. I guess we have to keep in perspective that the Reformation was still going on at this point in time. If they had used Catholic it may have confused the laity into thinking of reference to Rome. They probably didn’t have access to the nuances of difference between Catholic and catholic.That quote is from Martin Chemnitz, a 16th century Lutheran (Loci Theologici, Vol. 2, p. 694).
I don’t really have any problem with Christians who prefer to translate the Greek word katholiken (“universal”) rather than transliterating it; but my question is, wasn’t there a German word meaning “universal” that they could have used, rather than translating katholiken as Christliche (“Christian”)?
I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t think it really addresses my question.From what I understand, Christian was used instead of Catholic to avoid any confusion on the laypeople. I guess we have to keep in perspective that the Reformation was still going on at this point in time. If they had used Catholic it may have confused the laity into thinking of reference to Rome. They probably didn’t have access to the nuances of difference between Catholic and catholic.
You’re right, it’s Christliche.I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t think it really addresses my question.
The way I see it, there were three possible words they could have used:
I think that your argument about not wanting to confuse the laypeople (assuming it’s valid) is really only an objection to #1, not to #2.
- katholische (transliteration of the Greek katholiken)
- allgemeine (translation of the Greek katholiken)
- Christliche (“Christian”)
P.S. I make no guarantee on the accuracy of those German words, since I know very, very little German. (Actually I think it’s “Christl” rather than “Christliche”.)
From the LCMS website:From what I understand, Christian was used instead of Catholic to avoid any confusion on the laypeople. I guess we have to keep in perspective that the Reformation was still going on at this point in time. If they had used Catholic it may have confused the laity into thinking of reference to Rome. They probably didn’t have access to the nuances of difference between Catholic and catholic.
*Q. I am somewhat new to the Lutheran Church and I have asked why Lutherans say “holy Christian church” instead of “holy catholic church?”
Saying “holy Christian church” means just that! The root of the word comes from the Latin and specifically refers to Christ; therefore, we, as Lutherans, partition ourselves from our Judeo-Christian heritage. Since we use both the Old and New Testament, we believe that our Christian heritage precedes the birth of Christ.
If I am not mistaken, “catholic” has its roots in Greek as “katholou” - (“kata” means general and “holou” means whole).
This confirms what you say here, but like Peter, I’ll be interested in what you find about what the early Lutherans thought.As a result, it seems only logical that we believe in the universal or whole church and not just a part.*
A. The inclusion of the word “catholic” in the confession of the ecumenical creeds has never been an issue in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod. In fact, on pages where the words “holy Christian church” are found in Lutheran Service Book (our hymnal) the following notation is included: “Christian: the ancient text reads ‘catholic,’ meaning the whole Church as it confesses the wholeness of Christian doctrine.” Those misinformed about or unaware of the meaning of the lower-cased “catholic” might think the reference is to the Catholic Church. This note in our hymnal, therefore, should be helpful. You are correct in your notation about the etymological components of the term “catholic” [Greek: katholikos, “general,” “universal”].