A Question for Lutherans

[puzzleannie]

returning to OP, remember, it was about Lutherans and Martin Luther’s putative anti-semitism, not about Catholics, popes or otherwise.

In making a historical judgement it would be relevant to examine not only Luther’s writings, and how they evolved over his lifetime, but how his teachings were put into practice in Germany and other countries that instituted a Protestant state religion after the Reformation–Netherlands, Scandinavia, Germany, the various duchies and other principalities of what later became Poland, Czechoslovakia etc. What were there official policies toward Jews, how did that shape the history of Jews in those countries.

 

[Steadfast]

returning to OP, remember, it was about Lutherans and Martin Luther’s putative anti-semitism, not about Catholics, popes or otherwise.

In making a historical judgement it would be relevant to examine not only Luther’s writings, and how they evolved over his lifetime, but how his teachings were put into practice in Germany and other countries that instituted a Protestant state religion after the Reformation–Netherlands, Scandinavia, Germany, the various duchies and other principalities of what later became Poland, Czechoslovakia etc. What were there official policies toward Jews, how did that shape the history of Jews in those countries.

Right, because Spain and Italy were always nice to the Jews. And ooh, how 'bout that huge Protestant state, Russia? They always treated their Jews really well.

You realize that it was Cromwell who permitted them to return to England, right?

You’re mistaken, anti-semitism is no respecter of creed or cult.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Steadfast:

For the sake of clarification, any decent biography of the Cure D’Ars will explain that he had a very hard time in seminary, so much so that his superiors did not believe that he had the mental wherewithal to be a priest.

Eventually, he was ordained but he was prohibited from certain priestly duties (it’s been a long time since I read it, but I think he wasn’t allowed to hear confessions at first).

Anyhow, the consensus is that he just wasn’t a very bright person and may, possibly have been, as I said, at least mildly retarded.

Having said that, it must also be mentioned that he is the patron saint of parish priests and that the reason this is so is because he had a supremely loving and pastoral heart and that his gifts as a caretaker of souls so outstripped any deficiency he may have had in cognitive ability as to make it inconsequential.

And my point in mentioning it is that faults or weaknesses do not disqualify a man for service.

But Cure D’Ars did not set up his own denomination. Luther did.

And this side-steps the whole issue of antisemitism altogether. No one said that ones faults or weaknesses disqualified a man for service. It’s if one is filled with hatred which disqualifies them.

Luther’s words were scathingly hateful toward Jewish people later in life.

Exactly why this is the case, I don’t know for sure. But if his antisemitic words resulted in Jewish people dying, then Luther is indirectly responsible for their deaths.

puzzleannie said it correctly when they said…

In making a historical judgement it would be relevant to examine not only Luther’s writings, and how they evolved over his lifetime, but how his teachings were put into practice in Germany and other countries that instituted a Protestant state religion after the Reformation–Netherlands, Scandinavia, Germany, the various duchies and other principalities of what later became Poland, Czechoslovakia etc. What were there official policies toward Jews, how did that shape the history of Jews in those countries.

I think this is worthy of further consideration and should not be dismissed lightly.

 

[Saint_Michael]

Why are people attacking Saint John Vianney? He has nothing to do with this topic, this is the worst kind of discussion. To try and defend Luther’s anti-semitism by calling a beloved Saint retarded is terrible. I’m going to report this nonsense and hopefully the MOD takes care of it.

 

[Mickey]

And St. John Vianney was, in all likelihood, at least mildly retarded.

Though he was of average intelligence and his masters never seem to have doubted his vocation, his knowledge was extremely limited, being confined to a little arithmetic, history, and geography, and he found learning, especially the study of Latin, excessively difficult. One of his fellow-students, Matthias Loras, afterwards first Bishop of Dubuque, assisted him with his Latin lessons.
newadvent.org/cathen/08326c.htm

But then I thought this was a thread about Luther?

 

[puzzleannie]

Right, because Spain and Italy were always nice to the Jews. And ooh, how 'bout that huge Protestant state, Russia? They always treated their Jews really well.

You realize that it was Cromwell who permitted them to return to England, right?

You’re mistaken, anti-semitism is no respecter of creed or cult.

the OP, as I remarked, was directed at Lutherans, you can start another thread to discuss anti-semitism in other faiths, countries and cultures, but that is not the topic of discussion here. I am not mistaken, and I did a larger part of my MA history research on anti-semitism, and the actions and teachings of a religious figure should be examined in the context of the culture of their time and place. Asking for a historical analysis does not condone or excuse the crime.

 

[Valke2]

the OP, as I remarked, was directed at Lutherans, you can start another thread to discuss anti-semitism in other faiths, countries and cultures, but that is not the topic of discussion here. I am not mistaken, and I did a larger part of my MA history research on anti-semitism, and the actions and teachings of a religious figure should be examined in the context of the culture of their time and place. Asking for a historical analysis does not condone or excuse the crime.

And my OP has been, I think, sufficiently addressed.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I don’t know what telegenic means, but I think I would agree. He was a-ok.

I didn’t know the part about being the first in a synagouge.

Telegenic: Having a physical appearance and exhibiting personal qualities that are deemed highly appealing to television viewers.

Some have argued that the Pope’s actions were merely for show. While I don’t think this is the case, I do think it had a strong impact on those who viewed his actions. The article I quoted shares the same opinion I do, which is why I quoted and linked to it.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who have participated.