A question for non-Catholic Christians ONLY.

[dougfreed]

Misteaching on my part. I always understood it that the church taught that at least thats why my inlaws insisted we hurry up and baptize our 3 children. Thank you for pointing this out. Is the a place i can get a download of The Catechism? I have found online use and books but I like offline on computer.
Thank again

The Catholic Church does not say the unbaptized infant is condemned.

From the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

*1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. *

1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God’s mercy and to pray for their salvation

As you can see, its neither “wacky” nor is it it a teaching of the Catholic Church that unbaptized infants or children are condemned.

 

[Reformed]

The Catholic Church does not say the unbaptized infant is condemned.

From the Catechism:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#VI

*1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. *

1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God’s mercy and to pray for their salvation

As you can see, its neither “wacky” nor is it it a teaching of the Catholic Church that unbaptized infants or children are condemned.

Prior to this particular Catechism, didn’t the Catholic Church have a different view for infants who die without being baptized? I have found Catholics use this particular Catechism as being Sacred Tradition. It seems this Catechism was published in 1997. So, what were the views prior to 1997 on this particular issue?

The Second Edition English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes the corrections promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 8 September 1997.

 

[RobHom]

Misteaching on my part. I always understood it that the church taught that at least thats why my inlaws insisted we hurry up and baptize our 3 children.

Don’t feel bad… I think its possible that even many Catholics are not 100% aware of exactly whats what… This page will give some information on “Limbo”…which was a theological thought, which I believe was conceived because of both Biblical thoughts and the belief that God being merciful would not condemn an innocent child for eternity for being born, even with “original sin”.

In light of all of that…it has always been urged to have newborns baptized promptly…just in case…something should happen unexpectedly.

Thank you for pointing this out. Is the a place i can get a download of The Catechism? I have found online use and books but I like offline on computer.
Thank again

Here is a link for the Catholic Encyclopedia “New Advent” that is available on CD: store.newadventcd.com/caencd.html

The downloadable Catechism here: catholicplanet.com/ and its a freeby. The format is a little different than you will find here at this site: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here is another source: memorare.com/catechism/

 

[Reformed]

Don’t feel bad… I think its possible that even many Catholics are not 100% aware of exactly whats what… This page will give some information on “Limbo”…which was a theological thought, which I believe was conceived because of both Biblical thoughts and the belief that God being merciful would not condemn an innocent child for eternity for being born, even with “original sin”.

In light of all of that…it has always been urged to have newborns baptized promptly…just in case…something should happen unexpectedly.

Here is a link for the Catholic Encyclopedia “New Advent” that is available on CD: store.newadventcd.com/caencd.html

The downloadable Catechism here: catholicplanet.com/ and its a freeby. The format is a little different than you will find here at this site: scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here is another source: memorare.com/catechism/

Are you sure Roman Catholic doctrine doesn’t change with the wind, and seasons?

 

[SIA]

Lets say that I am living in the South American jungle and I am a member of this tribe: news.mongabay.com/2008/0530-amazon_tribe.html I and my ancestors have lived here for as long as history is recorded. My tribe has had no, I repeat no human contact with anyone outside of our tribe ever.

Am I condemned to hell?

A simple yes or no answer is all that is sought. No scripture quotes are required or desired. If you cannot answer without quoting scriptures please do not answer. No justification for answers is needed.

No.

 

[RobHom]

Are you sure Roman Catholic doctrine doesn’t change with the wind, and seasons?

Yes.

A rather trite question on your part considering all of the different and constantly changing “viewpoints” that keep popping up in your realm…

In fact in light of the supercilious nature of your comment, do you have any idea of what “limbo” or the Church’s actual teachings vis a vis newborns and children who passed away prior to baptism? Or was this just another opportunity for you to belch out a nonsensical line?

 

[brkn1]

Lets say that I am living in the South American jungle and I am a member of this tribe: news.mongabay.com/2008/0530-amazon_tribe.html I and my ancestors have lived here for as long as history is recorded. My tribe has had no, I repeat no human contact with anyone outside of our tribe ever.

Am I condemned to hell?

A simple yes or no answer is all that is sought. No scripture quotes are required or desired. If you cannot answer without quoting scriptures please do not answer. No justification for answers is needed.

Many of the “no” responses smack of Universalism, which does line up with the Gospel.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Hogwash. I have every right to speak on whatever topic I want. Jesus said to “tell the world” of Him SO THAT HE COULD SAVE them. NOT to make disciples.

Examine your motive. You were doing it as a put-down. You don’t even know me, and yes, you confessed and apologized yourself for being rude. Your word, not mine. (You are forgiven)

That’s what He said, not me. Your belief about those being saved because they’ve never heard of Him is based on man’s longing for fairness and justice. God’s ways are not our ways.

My picture must be one of Truth, based on His Word, not on my own understanding of what would be fair in my eyes. But yes, I agree with you that if it were left up to my judgment, it would be nice if those who haven’t had the chance to hear could have the same shot at heaven that his faithful have.

 

[RobHom]

Prior to this particular Catechism, didn’t the Catholic Church have a different view for infants who die without being baptized? I have found Catholics use this particular Catechism as being Sacred Tradition. It seems this Catechism was published in 1997. So, what were the views prior to 1997 on this particular issue?

Page down on this page newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm to where it says Limbus infantium and begin reading. It explains it all, and it is historical back to the 4th or 5th Century AD.

The Second Edition English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes the corrections promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 8 September 1997.

You mean this: scborromeo.org/ccc/updates.htm

Which is the following:

**MODIFICATIONS
from the Edito Typica

INTRODUCTION

On September 8, 1997, Pope John Paul II formally promulgated the editio typica (the definitive Latin language edition) of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The next day the modifications to the original editions, published in the various modem languages, were made public. The modifications are intended to bring the texts of the modem language editions into conformity with the Latin text. This booklet contains the modifications to the English language text published in the United States in 1994 in trade editions and in 1995 in mass market editions. The numbers in bold preceding each of the modifications correspond to paragraph numbers in the original editions of the Catechism. **

They were not “corrections” but rather “modifications” of the language to accommodate differences in languages. The Catechism is the same. If there is one thing true about Catholicism…its stodgy and consistent.

 

[RobHom]

Many of the “no” responses smack of Universalism, which does line up with the Gospel.

There is no “universalism” involved. What is involved is the fact that the Gospels do not address the issue. Beyond that, the beliefs are held as fact based on the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

 

[brkn1]

There is no “universalism” involved. What is involved is the fact that the Gospels do not address the issue. Beyond that, the beliefs are held as fact based on the writings of the Early Church Fathers.

The “Gospel does not address the issue.”?
“Beyond that, …”?

(John 3:18) “He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,…”
Those are Jesus’ words.

“Beyond that,…” is just another gospel, which is Scripturally condemned.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The “Gospel does not address the issue.”?
“Beyond that, …”?

(John 3:18) “He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already,…”
Those are Jesus’ words.

“Beyond that,…” is just another gospel, which is Scripturally condemned.

Does it say only belief?

Belief is necessary, but not sufficient.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 15
Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

James 2
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

 

[brkn1]

Does it say only belief?

Belief is necessary, but not sufficient.

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

John 15
Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

James 2
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

The kind of belief, in the context of what Jesus was referring to, could only come to those who were born again by the work of God the Holy Spirit.
Intellectual belief in Jesus, that is the work of man or demons, will not save. Salvation must be by the true saving belief in the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, which only the Holy Spirit can place into all those that God the Father chooses to give to His Son Jesus.

None of your quotes from Scripture would be able to save those described in the first post of this thread.