A question for Romans and Byzantines

[futureKC123]

+JMJ+
Though this question mentions the Byzantine Rite, it primarily deals with the Roman one so I put it here, if the moderators wish to move that is fine

I am a traditional Roman Catholic who is “migrating” if you will, spiritually to the East. Since I do not live near a Byzantine Church but still say Byzantine prayers and practice eastern devotions, I don’t think I will be switching rites any time soon, can I make the Sign of the Cross the Byzantine way? :byzsoc:
Thanks for your help!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

+JMJ+
Though this question mentions the Byzantine Rite, it primarily deals with the Roman one so I put it here, if the moderators wish to move that is fine

I am a traditional Roman Catholic who is “migrating” if you will, spiritually to the East. Since I do not live near a Byzantine Church but still say Byzantine prayers and practice eastern devotions, I don’t think I will be switching rites any time soon, can I make the Sign of the Cross the Byzantine way? :byzsoc:
Thanks for your help!

There is no problem with that but why call attention to yourself in public worship, such as the Mass? As the saying goes, when in Rome, do as the Romans.

When I attend my community (Latin Catholic Carmelites) prayers or the Mass I cross myself as they do. When I attend my parish (a Byzantine one) I cross myself as they do. When I am doing my private prayer and devotions I cross myself as a Byzantine does (as I am one).

 

[5Loaves]

I am a traditional Roman Catholic who is “migrating” if you will, spiritually to the East. Since I do not live near a Byzantine Church but still say Byzantine prayers and practice eastern devotions, I don’t think I will be switching rites any time soon, **can I make the Sign of the Cross the Byzantine way? :**byzsoc:
Thanks for your help!

I think it’s a personal choice. In your situation since you are not actually practicing in an Eastern Church it would be good to try to find a spiritual father from the East to help you with questions like this. Even if there is no Byzantine Catholic parish in your area do you know if there are any bi-ritual priests near by who might work with you?

The use of the Sign of the Cross plays a so much greater part in our lives in liturgy in the East than it does in the Latin/“Roman” Church. For me it is “hard wired”, not only to sign as you call it in the Byzantine way- right to left, with the thumb and first two fingers together and remaining fingers down to the palm, with a bow, but also to make the Sign of the Cross at each mention of the Most Holy Trinity. I find I’m not entirely uncomfortable only bowing my head at the mention of Christ God, and of Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary without also crossing myself, tho there definitely is a desire to make the normal-for-us crossing and bow at those times as well, and occasionally that will slip out by sheer force of habit. I do sometimes cross myself during the prayers of the faithful if a petition is especially a concern for me.

I appreciate Br. David’s “When in Rome…” perspective. At the same time I cannot leave my praxis, my Eastern world view at the door. I think the discernment rests with each person, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It should not have any intention of calling attention to one’s self.

I don’t know about where you live but I live in an area with a great many Latino faithful, and their mode of making the Sign of the Cross is distinct and different from the plain flat hand forehead , chest, left, right which I am guessing you mean by the “Roman” way. They would consider themselves fully “Roman” while crossing in their own way.

I’m sorry you lack access on a regular basis to a Byzantine Catholic parish. That is true for so many people. :sad_yes: If there is an Orthodox parish near you? You might consider going there for vespers and vigils or orthos if they have that. Since our Liturgical year typically is marked with more attention to feast days than in most Latin parishes in the US (if you’re in the US) there are more opportunities to worship outside of a Divine Liturgy, ie at a liturgy without Holy Eucharist in conjunction with these feast days.

The feast of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Matthew is on Tuesday, 11/16. The Entry of the Most-Holy Theotokos into the Temple is next Sunday, 11/21 so there would be a festal Vigil Sat. evening for that. The feast day of St. Nicholas the Wonderworker is Dec 6th and the Conception by Righteous St. Anna of the Theotokos is Dec 9 and there may be Festal Vigils the night before for those as well.

I do have a Byzantine parish but we are also such a tiny commuter parish that we don’t have festal vigils for most of these feast days, and for some we don’t even meet for DL so I and other parishioners then go to Russian Orthodox parishes for these services, with much gratitude for their welcoming us there.

Since you don’t have access to a worshiping community, what led you to feel this migration, did you have some chance to assist in the DL someplace else, or is it mainly from hearing about the Eastern Churches?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’ll echo what Bro. David said. When I’m in my UGCC parish I’d cross right-to-left, and when I’m in my RC parish I’d cross left-to-right. Unless it was an honest mistake (like saying Amen when receiving Communion in Divine Liturgy ) its best that we follow the tradition of the Liturgical Rite we are participating in. And not only in crossing but in everything else, like to kneel or not to kneel, etc. Yes, in the UGCC parish I go to there are those who kneel for Consecration and before and after Communion. It would have been easy for me to follow them but I know what the proper tradition is so I stand.

 

[FirstCalled]

I believe the Pope asked us to learn more about our Eastern brothers so it could open up an interesting dialogue. I love the Byz cross but I am hardwired for Roman so when in Rome naturally I just do the quick one.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I believe the Pope asked us to learn more about our Eastern brothers so it could open up an interesting dialogue. I love the Byz cross but I am hardwired for Roman so when in Rome naturally I just do the quick one.

Yup, from Pope John Paul II’s Orientale Lumen:

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

 

[futureKC123]

JMJ
First off thanks for the help so far,
though I dont have a biritual priest or a byzantine church, at Roman Mass I would always make it the Roman way, but Im talking about in private devotions or while Im praying byzantine prayers
Thanks for the help
AMDG

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

JMJ
First off thanks for the help so far,
though I dont have a biritual priest or a byzantine church, at Roman Mass I would always make it the Roman way, but Im talking about in private devotions or while Im praying byzantine prayers
Thanks for the help
AMDG

As I said, in private devotions do what you feel is right for you. Especially when doing Byzantine prayers I would cross myself in the Byzantine manner and do so at the times a Byzantine would (when ever the Trinity is mentioned).

 

[malphono]

JMJ
First off thanks for the help so far,
though I dont have a biritual priest or a byzantine church, at Roman Mass I would always make it the Roman way, but Im talking about in private devotions or while Im praying byzantine prayers
Thanks for the help

In private, as Br David says, you may do as you feel appropriate. But let me just mention that there are a few Byzantines (a minority of Melkites, in specific, but there may be others) who habitually sign themselves the “Roman” way. They also use the full five-fingers when doing so and are sometimes referred to in the Middle East as “children of the five.”