A Respectful Dialogue with Muslims

[geometer]

…and another one bites the dust.

Well, I really don’t remember much about what I read in the Koran, because I found it to be poorly written. For instance it seems there were passages which read like this;

‘God is God and there is no other God but God.’

So, I really could not see how phrases like that were the words written by an angel.
I was very disappointed. Why wouldn’t an angel reveal great things?

Respectfully,

Vincent

 

[Sister_Amy]

Well, I really don’t remember much about what I read in the Koran, because I found it to be poorly written. For instance it seems there were passages which read like this;

‘God is God and there is no other God but God.’

So, I really could not see how phrases like that were the words written by an angel.
I was very disappointed. Why wouldn’t an angel reveal great things?

Respectfully,

Vincent

Heh. Find that passage in the Qur’an, will you? Then we can talk.

 

[geometer]

Heh. Find that passage in the Qur’an, will you? Then we can talk.

I don’t know if it is in the Koran, but you have to admit that there is a lot in there that is written right on that level. Since the Koran is such a small work, it is very wasteful for it to be written at such a low level of language.

 

[jakasaki]

Was not this thread supposed to be a “respectful dialogue with Muslims?” Having already failed in that regard, I say it has bitten the dust.

And I haven’t been around for a while. I’ve been kind of busy and the forum is just a time sink.

OK, I get… so why don’t you start and address post #2 from the poster…

 

[Sister_Amy]

I don’t know if it is in the Koran, but you have to admit that there is a lot in there that is written right on that level. Since the Koran is such a small work, it is very wasteful for it to be written at such a low level of language.

It’s not in the Qur’an. That was pretty much my point. Hehe.

The Qur’an was revealed in the Arabic language, so often (or really, always) when it is rendered into English the amazing eloquence is lost. So it seems to you to be simple, perhaps a low level of language, but you are reading the language of the translator. Whereas the Arabic will contain vocabulary words which are all translated the same way, resulting in a loss of subtlety, and grammatical expressions are impossible to translate resulting in a loss of nuance and emphasis.

I have for instance a 25-hour audio set (it’s like 27-28 CDs) that is all about just one chapter of the Qur’an, the first chapter, called Al-Fatihah. The speaker will spend an hour or two sometimes on just a few words in the chapter, the deep meaning implied in them.

The more I study Arabic, the greater my appreciation for the beautiful language of the Qur’an. Because while translators can attempt to simplify the meaning of the Qur’an (often selecting one meaning of many) it just isn’t possible to extract the rhetorical power, the eloquence, and the beauty of the rhyme and rhythm of the Qur’an.

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK, I get… so why don’t you start and address post #2 from the poster…

It seemed to me that the thread had already diverged off-topic. But since you’ve also requested I answer that post, sure.

First of all, the Qur’an is not a creation–not according to Islamic creed (i.e., the teachings of Islam, and the beliefs of Muslims.) It is the Speech of God. The idea here is that if you speak, your speech isn’t really created (by you or anyone) but rather it is spoken. That’s how the Qur’an is–spoken. Uttered. Revealed.

Of course, you can choose not to believe that to be the reality of the case, but it is only fair for me to try my best to properly explain what Islam teaches on the matter, yes?

Now, the question is why the Qur’an is revealed about seemingly mundane aspects of Muhammad’s life. The Qur’an was revealed of course during the lifetime of Muhammad, over a period of 23 years, little bit by little bit. I won’t presume to know all the wisdom behind this (I believe Allah is All-Wise) but I can tell you what I’ve been taught.

The Qur’an of course does not chronicle the life of Muhammad at all, it is not “about” him. But when passages of the Qur’an were revealed accompanying events in the lives of Muhammad and his companions (events which did not seem mundane to them), then this strengthened their faith. It also serves as a lesson for all Muslims to come.

There are in the Bible stories about people like Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, about whom lessons can be derived. Lessons regarding how a person should live, with respect to his relationship with God. There are similar stories in the Qur’an to these, about those same people. In fact, many of the same stories are there. But about Muhammad there aren’t really stories in the Qur’an. Muhammad is supposed to be the example for everyone to follow him. The Qur’an teaches the lessons which are to be extracted from the example of his life.

For example, at the death of Muhammad’s beloved uncle, he tried to get his uncle to accept Islam. And though his uncle loved him very much, and even believed he was a prophet of God!, he would not renounce the religion of his forefathers (i.e., idol-worship). Then a passage from the Qur’an was revealed consoling Muhammad, but also saying that even he could not get everyone to accept Islam even though he really wanted them to. It’s an example for Muslims today who might see their families reject Islam, and to know that guidance is ultimately with Allah, and not with the person teaching the Islam. There is a similar example in the story of Noah, actually, meaning this particular lesson is emphasized a number of times.

I hope that helps to understand.

 

[neploho]

Was not this thread supposed to be a “respectful dialogue with Muslims?” Having already failed in that regard, I say it has bitten the dust.

And I haven’t been around for a while. I’ve been kind of busy and the forum is just a time sink.

I suggust we do not allow that to happen. Geometer seems honest and I truely want to start a respectful dialogue. I suggust we (Muslim and non Muslim) ignore any posts which are simply seeking to get a rise out of Muslims and continue our dialogue.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… I suggust we (Muslim and non Muslim) ignore any posts which are simply seeking to get a rise out of Muslims and continue our dialogue.

I have stopped reading posts of several Christians . Now it’s hard to find whose posts to read ?

 

[Sister_Amy]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

I have stopped reading posts of several Christians . Now it’s hard to find whose posts to read ?

Ditto. I know what you mean.

 

[neploho]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

I have stopped reading posts of several Christians . Now it’s hard to find whose posts to read ?

I would make a note that many Catholic thinkers, that is serious thinkers not silly internet posters, have tried to engage in honest and respectful conversations with Islam and Muslims. I say this simply so you know this those posters (I assume we have similar individuals in mind) on this board are not representative of all Catholics.

For example the Catholic Theologian Hans Kung recently put out a very good book which is his attempt as a Catholic to have a serious and respectful engagement with Islam. If you are interested.

 

[dzheremi]

Respectful dialogue with others is often a lot more difficult than even the most well-intentioned can appreciate at the outset. The Vatican has recently questioned the possibility of true respectful dialogue with Islam, for instance.

I have tried to have respectful dialogue with Muslims here in the past, and still try to do so both here and in real life. Sometimes it has been successful to the extent that I have learned what other people believe and grown in my understanding in that way. Sometimes it has not been successful. In those cases, sometimes it has been my fault. I have publically apologized here for that, and will do so again should I be taken to task for any lack of charity or intellectual honesty.

Central to respectful dialogue, however, are some possibly very “unrespectful” assertions (your belief is morally/spiritually reprehensible, false, etc), . A definition of what both parties would agree constitutes “respectful” is necessary beforehand, then, and I don’t think we’ve ever been able to come to a consensus as to what that is.

 

[chrisse]

Many non-Muslims condemn Islam for allowing war , war slaves , killing , polygamy etc as if Islam introduced all of these . They forgot that their own holy book approved all these.

Give examples from others holy books …
I don’t think it’s attacking other religions , it’s the comparison . If u don’t compare , then how will u understand u have got the best ?

Muslim Woman, if you don’t compare with honesty, then you will never have the best.

Jesus Christ is our Lord and Saviour - there is no better. The only begotten Son of God, the Father. The Almighty YHWH. Jesus, the Christ, came to fulfil the old covenant and bring in the new for our eternal salvation. There is no need for further revelations from YHWH, when YHWH Himself came in fulfillment.

Why was there a need for further revelations? YHWH is not a liar, nor is YHWH a deceiver. Christ died on the Cross for our salvation - that is the truth. He was not whisked away without anyone knowing. That would be deceit. Does you allah deceive? If so, then allah can not be YHWH.

 

[planten]

Well, I really don’t remember much about what I read in the Koran, because I found it to be poorly written. For instance it seems there were passages which read like this;

‘God is God and there is no other God but God.’

So, I really could not see how phrases like that were the words written by an angel.
I was very disappointed. Why wouldn’t an angel reveal great things?

Respectfully,

Vincent

**Vincent, you have not given any reference for the words " 'God is God and there is no other God but God." Where did you read it? It seems to be correct but poorly worded by some one other than an angel. I am sure angel had not dictated it in English.

Please indicate where you read it. Thanks**.

 

[planten]

I don’t know if it is in the Koran, but you have to admit that there is a lot in there that is written right on that level. Since the Koran is such a small work, it is very wasteful for it to be written at such a low level of language.

Vincent, Quran is not a small book. It is much bigger than the bibleNT.

 

[chrisse]

**Vincent, you have not given any reference for the words " 'God is God and there is no other God but God." Where did you read it? It seems to be correct but poorly worded by some one other than an angel. I am sure angel had not dictated it in English.

Please indicate where you read it. Thanks**.

Planten, he said “read like this”, he wasn’t quoting exact words. He also said that was his memory of reading the quran, ie that’s the impact left after reading it.

 

[nohamaria]

]
I would make a note that many Catholic thinkers, that is serious thinkers not silly internet posters,

.

Hi,
I am Nohamaria, An OFS Member and Christian catholic,
I had a thread Entitled"Muslims God is your Father , Why do you ask for less"
Which was very respectful too.
I get here and addressed a post in your thread because the tone
is respectful .
Would you please reply to me whether am considered among the ones
you described above ?
Thank you
Nohamaria

 

[pismopal]

Vincent, Quran is not a small book. It is much bigger than the bibleNT.

Is the question about our holy books, their relative qualities and who or who did not present them or is the real question about the behavior today of the adherants of the religions of the world? Do we say “look here what this book says about so and so” or do we watch as religions interact with each other in borders of two countries or within the borders of one country populated by mixes of different religions. I believe that the proof of the well meaning or the quality of certain religions is in the behavior of those who profess the superiority of their religion and how they treat those who disagree with them. Which religion seems to be in constant turmoil and conflict with others no matter the setting? War and hostility with other religions worldwide and war and hostility with variations of their same religion.

 

[katy_kt]

Many non-Muslims condemn Islam for allowing war , war slaves , killing , polygamy etc as if Islam introduced all of these . They forgot that their own holy book approved all these.

That is the problem, we don’t consider the Bible condoning this. The argument about interpretation of the Bible can go on and on, but it isn’t as simple as pulling out a verse from the Bible and using it. The Bible is a collection of scripture over thousand of years. It has a history context that can’t be ignored.

The discussion is not able interpretation of the Bible, it is about certain practices in Islam or Muslims that seems to be condoned by the Quran. What Muslims mostly do is pull of verses from the Bible and give their own interpretation rather than the Christian interpretation. In short instead of explaining your understanding of certain verses in the Quran you are giving us your interpretation of verses in our Bible.

It is not a comparison. For us Catholics it a sin to kill even when a person leaves our religion. Thus saying, “you are doing the same thing”, is not giving us a comparison but instead just making us think that you have no understanding of it.