A serie of questions related to free will

[Bahman]

First, how do we construct reason?

Second, how could you be determined when you have doubt/are undermined (when you are trying to make a decision)?

Third, where does reason come from when you are undermined?

Forth, how could you have doubt if you are determined?

Fifth, what is doubt?

Sixth, what is your definition of free will? I can define it as the ability that appears when neither doubt nor reason can win a battle.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

First, how do we construct reason?

Can you clarify your question? Reason is a built-in aspect of our nature, so you can’t construct it.

You can refine your skill at reasoning. Is that what you mean?

You can study logic, and thereby build your skills. Begin by reading Plato.

 

[Bahman]

Can you clarify your question? Reason is a built-in aspect of our nature, so you can’t construct it.

That is not correct. We do construct reason like other unknown aspect of minds. A kid learns reasoning and we teach them. The basic built-in infra structure is not reasoning but the ability to experience.

 

[seagal]

That is not correct. We do construct reason like other unknown aspect of minds. A kid learns reasoning and we teach them. The basic built-in infra structure is not reasoning but the ability to experience.

I don’t think that’s entirely true. As humans we have an innate ability to use reason to figure things out. A kid can learn reasoning but they can also figure things out for themselves because they’re born with the ability. I’m not talking about higher reasoning, but they know simple cause and effect.

 

[seagal]

First, how do we construct reason?

Second, how could you be determined when you have doubt/are undermined (when you are trying to make a decision)?

Third, where does reason come from when you are undermined?

Forth, how could you have doubt if you are determined?

Fifth, what is doubt?

Sixth, what is your definition of free will? I can define it as the ability that appears when neither doubt nor reason can win a battle.

1. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the first question.
2. Still not quite sure what you’re asking but I’ll give it a go. Sometimes I’ve made a decision but am not sure if it’s the right one (is that what you mean?). I have to do something so I am determined to go ahead with my decision, even though I’m doubtful.
3. Do you mean undermined or undetermined? I would say reason comes from the same thing in either case - from taking in information, verifying facts or assumptions, apply logic, and making a rational decision.
4. See #2.
5. Doubt = Uncertainty, indecision, mistrust.
6. Free will is simply the ability to make a decision and act on it. Whether you’re doubtful, decisive, rational or totally illogical, you have the freedom to act whatever way, or not act at all.

 

[Bahman]

1. I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the first question.

I think I was clear. How we could construct knowledge which is basic foundation of reasoning?

1. Still not quite sure what you’re asking but I’ll give it a go. Sometimes I’ve made a decision but am not sure if it’s the right one (is that what you mean?). I have to do something so I am determined to go ahead with my decision, even though I’m doubtful.

It is simple. Consider the word as a deterministic being. How such a think like doubt and choices could be actual? We have doubt hence determinism is false.

1. Do you mean undermined or undetermined? I would say reason comes from the same thing in either case - from taking in information, verifying facts or assumptions, apply logic, and making a rational decision.

I meant undermined. We are not free when we make rational decision.

1. See #2.

See my explanation.

1. Doubt = Uncertainty, indecision, mistrust.

And how uncertainty could exist in deterministic universe?

1. Free will is simply the ability to make a decision and act on it. Whether you’re doubtful, decisive, rational or totally illogical, you have the freedom to act whatever way, or not act at all.

You are contradicting yourself in these two place unless you change your definition.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Bahman,

I’m fairly certain English is not your native language, because your reasoning is not clearly expressed and sometimes very confused.

Am I right that English is not your native language?

 

[Bahman]

Bahman,

I’m fairly certain English is not your native language, because your reasoning is not clearly expressed and sometimes very confused.

Am I right that English is not your native language?

That is correct and I am so sorry for that. Needless to say that I try my best.

 

[seagal]

We clearly are talking at cross puposes here. Maybe it would be helpful to define terms. I simply googled these terms and agree with the following definitions:
Reason = the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.
**Knowledge **= facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
**Doubt **= (as posted previously) Uncertainty, indecision, mistrust.
**Undermine **= damage or weaken (someone or something), especially gradually or insidiously
**Determinism **= the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. In Catholic theology determinism is contrary to the doctrine of free will.
Free will = (from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) Para. 1731 “Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.”

If you agree with these terms we can look at your 6 questions.

First, how do we construct reason?
By taking in information (either through our own experiences or passed on from others) analyzing the information and making judgements.

Second, how could you be determined when you have doubt/are undermined (when you are trying to make a decision)?
In my earlier answer I thought you were using the other definition of determined (that is having made a firm decision on my own and being resolved not to change it) If instead you mean pre-determined by some outside force, I don’t believe in the doctrine of determinism. So it’s quite possible to have doubts about a decision. I don’t understand how you mean “undermined” here. Undermined by what or whom?

Third, where does reason come from when you are undermined?
Again, undermined by what or whom?

Forth, how could you have doubt if you are determined?
I don’t believe I am determined (by an outside force).

Fifth, what is doubt?
Already defined.

**Sixth, what is your definition of free will? I can define it as the ability that appears when neither doubt nor reason can win a battle. **
I go along with the CCC definition of free will. As such, it is quite possible to be doubtful or reasonable and still exercise free will in my final decision. In fact, by my definitions it is quite possible to be both reasonable and doubtful since they are not contradictory terms. I can use information to make judgements by reason but if I don’t have enough information I can have doubts. You seem to be using those terms differently than I would.

 

[Bahman]

We clearly are talking at cross puposes here. Maybe it would be helpful to define terms. I simply googled these terms and agree with the following definitions:
Reason = the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.

I agree.

**Knowledge **= facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

I don’t agree. Knowledge is structured thought.

**Doubt **= (as posted previously) Uncertainty, indecision, mistrust.

Uncertainty is close but I would prefer undetermined.

**Undermine **= damage or weaken (someone or something), especially gradually or insidiously

I was interested on undetermined. Sorry for mistype.

****Determinism ****= the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will. In Catholic theology determinism is contrary to the doctrine of free will.

I can agree with that.

Free will = (from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) Para. 1731 “Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.”

This is false. Freedom is not rooted in anything like reason and will but consciousness.
If you agree with these terms we can look at your 6 questions.

First, how do we construct reason?
By taking in information (either through our own experiences or passed on from others) analyzing the information and making judgements.

By constructing knowledge in consciousness.

Second, how could you be determined when you have doubt/are undetermined (when you are trying to make a decision)?
In my earlier answer I thought you were using the other definition of determined (that is having made a firm decision on my own and being resolved not to change it) If instead you mean pre-determined by some outside force, I don’t believe in the doctrine of determinism. So it’s quite possible to have doubts about a decision. I don’t understand how you mean “undermined” here. Undermined by what or whom?

I meant undetermined. If we do act based on reason then we turn into a machines which act based on circumstances yet we do know that we could have doubt. The existence of doubt means that causal picture is wrong.

Third, where does reason come from when you are undetermined?
Again, undermined by what or whom?

I meant undetermined.

Forth, how could you have doubt if you are determined?
I don’t believe I am determined (by an outside force).

So you do believe that causal picture is wrong?

Fifth, what is doubt?
Already defined.

I would go with undetermined.

**Sixth, what is your definition of free will? I can define it as the ability that appears when neither doubt nor reason can win a battle. **
I go along with the CCC definition of free will. As such, it is quite possible to be doubtful or reasonable and still exercise free will in my final decision. In fact, by my definitions it is quite possible to be both reasonable and doubtful since they are not contradictory terms. I can use information to make judgements by reason but if I don’t have enough information I can have doubts. You seem to be using those terms differently than I would.

Definition of CCC cannot be correct since it does not accommodate doubt: “Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will…” yet we know it that we are not free when we act based on a reason.

 

[seagal]

So you do believe that causal picture is wrong?

I don’t know what you mean by that phrase. Based on some of your other posts, I would say that I agree that I am influenced by things outside myself, but my own consciousness makes my decisions, and in that way I have free will.

This is false. Freedom is not rooted in anything like reason and will but consciousness.

where do reason and will reside except in our consciousness?

Definition of CCC cannot be correct since it does not accommodate doubt: “Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will…”** yet we know it that we are not free when we act based on a reason**.

Based on the way you used the word “reason” previously, I don’t know if this was a typo or not: did you mean “based on a reason” or “based on reason” – two different things. The first means “a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event”, the second means “the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.” Neither case precludes free will as I define it. You obviously have a different definition. By my definition, for example I am faced with a choice to do A or B. Using my reason I make a choice to do A. I may have doubts about that choice but I still freely choose to do it.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t know what you mean by that phrase. Based on some of your other posts, I would say that I agree that I am influenced by things outside myself, but my own consciousness makes my decisions, and in that way I have free will.

Well, you catch what I meant. There is a difference between influenced and determined. This is in fact a door to definition of causality as causality has an informative role in the way I see it however the traditional causality has a determined role.

where do reason and will reside except in our consciousness?

In our machine side so called subconsciousness. We cannot consciously retrieve reason from what we have learn. Could you? They just pop up in the right time.

Based on the way you used the word “reason” previously, I don’t know if this was a typo or not: did you mean “based on a reason” or “based on reason” – two different things. The first means “a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event”, the second means “the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic.” Neither case precludes free will as I define it. You obviously have a different definition. By my definition, for example I am faced with a choice to do A or B. Using my reason I make a choice to do A. I may have doubts about that choice but I still freely choose to do it.

Reason does preclude free will. How you could be free if you always decide based on reason? What is the difference between you and a machine which act on a code, reason in our language.