A very complex question

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cgbennett

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Dear Sir or Madam:

I’ve never been quite comfortable with the Latin church’s love affair with scholastic philosophy and Augustine. I guess the point of this inquiry is to ask a question concerning levels of teaching in the Church.

Let me elaborate. One of the major treaties in the reunion of churches in the Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.” Furthermore, Unitatis Redintegratio (#17) notes: “What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine.”

Synopsis? It is clear that I can reasonably reject certain “theological expressions” of the Latin church, such as its understanding of original sin. The Latin concept of original sin, being that humans not only bear the “consequences” of the fall, but also its “guilt” contributed greatly in many ways to my own personal psychopathology that led me to AA. The substitutionary atonement (as elucidated by St. Anselm of Canterbury) is simply unacceptable to me. Always has been. The concept of “ancestral sin” and the “ransom” theory of the atonement, hallmarks of the Eastern churches (Catholic and Orthodox) have always been far more palatable and rational to me.

The question I suppose I am asking – how do I distinguish between that which I can reasonably reject (per my own theological palate) such as the Latin theory of the atonement, purgatory, etc. and that which is essential to the deposit of faith? The specific aspects of the Credo are an obvious answer. But how does this line of reasoning apply to, say, Humane Vitae?

This question isn’t an intellectual exercise for me. There are certain doctrines of the Church that still disturb me on a deep level of conscience, and I have tried my damnedest to subject my will and my life to the care of God as I understand God. However I can’t content myself to be a “liberal” or “cafeteria” Catholic because that very premise is utterly intellectually and morally bankrupt. Either the Church is the beacon of truth or it is utterly a farce. Very few things in life actually lend itself to such a binary division. But the thought does remain – what is in fact dogma, and what is mere theology?

In the same tone, John Thomas Noonan in “The Church That Can and Cannot Change” wonderfully constructs a historical view of the development of doctrine that was laid by Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman. He shows historically how certain things in the Church developed such as its radical shift on slavery, usury, and the salvation of non-Catholics (per Vatican II). So obviously – there is a certain distinction between that which is “theology” and that which is “dogma.” The latter being that which is utterly the Deposit of Faith of the apostles. The “theology” of which I speak is the substitutionary atonement, purgatory (in the way the West understands it), as well as ideas that have become utterly unpopular in the 20th century such as “limbo.” Clearly, in some fashion, theology can develop, while not detracting or changing the original deposit of faith.

So I return to the basic question that has been asked me many times – what must one absolutely believe in order to remain within the Barque of Peter, and what is fluff? Please teach me.

Much Respect,

Christopher
 
I would start with anything infallibly proclaimed, I suppose.
 
This question may be better asked in a different forum… however to make it applicable to this one I would say the following:

Throw out any teaching that is not common to both the Orthodox church and the RCC.

This will be the clearest starting point for anyone.

Partake of the sacraments and pray that you become illumined.

( As a side note, I can’t think of a single thing ( theologic ) that the Orthodox aspouse that the RCC reject, but there are plenty of examples of things that the RCC aspouses that the Orthodox reject )
 
The Foremost of All sinners… A man that was never going to come to Jesus of his own accord… a man who persecuted the followers of Jesus… was chosen by God to announce the Full Consequences of the completed work of the Cross.

He was used as an example for ALL by God, to show that it is the Will of God that prevails… not the will of man…in regards to the Salvation of EVERY & ALL Men…the message is clear and cannot be refuted…

There is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

This will be Testified in due time !
 
In the olden days, there were manuals which actually laid out which teachings were part of the Magisterium, which were natural law, and which ones were just speculation or could be decided by individual prudence. Jimmy Akin once talked about such manuals, I think. Something like… the Handbook of Dogma?
 
So I return to the basic question that has been asked me many times – what must one absolutely believe in order to remain within the Barque of Peter, and what is fluff?
I highly recommend the following distillation of the Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the Professio Fidei: “Summary of Categories of Belief”. In it you will find a summary of the Church’s most recent explanation of the doctrinal categories.

For the Doctrinal Commentary itself, click here.

For the Profession of Faith and the Oath of Fidelity, click here.
 
Oh Yes indeed… Heaven forbid we should seek the word of God on the matter.

Lets look at the Wisdom of Men… who incidently return to the dust they where made from… so much for the wisdom of man.
 
Oh Yes indeed… Heaven forbid we should seek the word of God on the matter.

Lets look at the Wisdom of Men… who incidently return to the dust they where made from… so much for the wisdom of man.
His Word spoken not only through Himself but also through His People.
 
The substitutionary atonement (as elucidated by St. Anselm of Canterbury) is simply unacceptable to me. Always has been. The concept of “ancestral sin” and the “ransom” theory of the atonement, hallmarks of the Eastern churches (Catholic and Orthodox) have always been far more palatable and rational to me.
Really?

Honestly?

Here’s the Ransom View in a nutshell:
Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the Devil at the time of the Fall; hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom to free us from the Devil’s clutches. God, however, tricked the Devil into accepting Christ’s death as a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.link
You honestly think that God would have stoop down and do a ‘bargain’ with his own creation? (Satan)

Satan only exists because God allows him to.

The problem with the Ransom Theory is that it’s too close to Dualism, you’re effectively divvying up terrirtory between God and Satan and saying that each one can’t cross on the others side without permission.

I really don’t see how this can be any closer to Blasphemy if it tried.

Sorry don’t want to cause offence, correct me if I’m wrong. (Catholics, you don’t believe this do you?)

Love,
Rev
 
now, I know why people say not to use wikipedia.
Thanks that really helped me understand more about the Catholic view of the ransom theory of atonement and any misconceptions I might have 👍

😦
 
Everything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church MUST be believed and accepted and that includes Purgatory.
Pugatory cannot be rejected.
 
Oh Yes indeed… Heaven forbid we should seek the word of God on the matter.

Lets look at the Wisdom of Men… who incidently return to the dust they where made from… so much for the wisdom of man.
Wisdom 9

17 And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above:…😉
 
Thanks that really helped me understand more about the Catholic view of the ransom theory of atonement and any misconceptions I might have 👍

😦
I am not sure who wrote those theory and put it on wikipedia. The best way to look up information about Catholic is to use Catechism or any trusted Catholic website.
 
Really?

Honestly?

Here’s the Ransom View in a nutshell:

You honestly think that God would have stoop down and do a ‘bargain’ with his own creation? (Satan)

Satan only exists because God allows him to.

The problem with the Ransom Theory is that it’s too close to Dualism, you’re effectively divvying up terrirtory between God and Satan and saying that each one can’t cross on the others side without permission.

I really don’t see how this can be any closer to Blasphemy if it tried.

Sorry don’t want to cause offence, correct me if I’m wrong. (Catholics, you don’t believe this do you?)

Love,
Rev
I can’t comment on the ransom theory itself, as I don’t know anything about it.

I can say that Catholics do not hold to the ransom theory. We hold that the sacrifice of Christ was a sacrifice made to God the Father. As is pointed out quite clearly numerous times in the NT, Christ was the Passover Lamb, which is a sacrifice to God, not a payment to Satan.
 
I’ve never been quite comfortable with the Latin church’s love affair with scholastic philosophy and Augustine. I guess the point of this inquiry is to ask a question concerning levels of teaching in the Church.

Article V of the Treaty of Brest states “We shall not debate about purgatory…” implying that both sides can agree to disagree on the specifics of what the West calls “Purgatory.”
not quite. Art.V states: “We shall not debate about Purgatory, but we entrust ourselves to the teaching of the Holy Church.”
Far from agreeing to disagree, Rome is laying down the law. “Don’t debate with us, and do as we say.”
But the thought does remain – what is in fact dogma, and what is mere theology?
Ludwig Ott’s “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” lists Catholic doctrines according to the certitude of each one.
…its radical shift on slavery, usury, and the salvation of non-Catholics (per Vatican II). So obviously – there is a certain distinction between that which is “theology” and that which is “dogma.” The latter being that which is utterly the Deposit of Faith of the apostles. The “theology” of which I speak is the substitutionary atonement, purgatory (in the way the West understands it), as well as ideas that have become utterly unpopular in the 20th century such as “limbo.” Clearly, in some fashion, theology can develop, while not detracting or changing the original deposit of faith.
There has been no radical shift on slavery, usury, and salvation of non-Catholics. Slavery has always been acknowledged as wrong by the Church. Usury was banned because money was formerly a static thing. Nowadays, since you can actually use money to get more money, and this circumstance didn’t exist hundreds of years ago, there is no shift. And finally, the Church has always acknowledged that it is possible for non-members to be admitted to heaven, but explicit membership has always been the most efficient way. Limbo has never been officially taught by the Church.
 
I’ve never been quite comfortable with the Latin church’s love affair with scholastic philosophy and Augustine. I guess the point of this inquiry is to ask a question concerning levels of teaching in the Church.
The question I suppose I am asking – how do I distinguish between that which I can reasonably reject (per my own theological palate) such as the Latin theory of the atonement, purgatory, etc. and that which is essential to the deposit of faith? The specific aspects of the Credo are an obvious answer. But how does this line of reasoning apply to, say, Humane Vitae?
…
. But the thought does remain – what is in fact dogma, and what is mere theology?
…
So I return to the basic question that has been asked me many times – what must one absolutely believe in order to remain within the Barque of Peter, and what is fluff? Please teach me.
Much Respect,
Christopher
Hello Christopher,

I think a book you will really find interesting and informative is “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott - publisher is Tan. The book gives a Catholic teaching (one line in bold print) - states the degree of theological certainty (from infallible to speculation) - then gives background (Scripture support, early Church fathers, controversy causing its definition, and sometimes varying theological understanding of it). All of this is done very concisely. The book was/is a godsend for me. I remember when I also wanted to know just what is and what isn’t infallible dogma. When I mentioned it to a friend, she gave me her book to read. Knew immediately I needed to add that book to my library. Am on my second copy - wore out the first one!

The book contains “faith” doctrines, not “moral” doctrines - so you won’t find topics like contraception and abortion covered in it.

Nita
 
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