A wager for my soul

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Muzhik

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Greetings! I’m a member of an End-Times forum where I’m the token Catholic. There is one member who is very up-front with her anti-Catholic beliefs, esp. that ALL Marian apparitions are demonic, a result of a “seducing spirit”, since they are not biblical.

Today I decided to throw down the gauntlet and get this at least partially settled. Here is the message I’m planning on posting, and I’d like everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut on it:

I’d like to settle this issue once and for all. You keep claiming that Marian apparitions are demonic and “seducing spirits”. Fine. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires me to believe that Mary or Jesus or any of the saints have appeared to anyone in the past 2,000 years. I believe because I have found faith and guidance and hope in these appearances, blessings that I do not believe I would have recv’d if these events had been the work of the devil. So I am going to make a wager with you, a wager for a very particular, very personal item:

My soul.

If in fact all these approved Marian apparitions through the centuries have been demonic manifestations geared towards seducing the faithful from their faith in Christ Jesus, then I am placing my soul in danger by believing them. In fact, if they are demonic then I have cut myself off from the Body of Christ through my belief in them, since I cannot be a member of the body yet hold on to something that is corrupt and corrupting. If these apparitions are demonic then there should be SOMETHING in the apparitions or the messages that will be proof of this. It should be so obvious that you should be able to find this proof and expose this for the evil it is by using the circumstances of the apparition and the messages of the apparition, i.e., something the apparition said or did shows its demonic origin.

So this is the challenge: I will give you 4 apparitions (3 of them modern). You pick one, research it, and provide the proof that it is demonic in origin. If you are able to do this, I will leave the Catholic Church.

In turn, if you are NOT able to provide proof, then I’m not going to demand that you convert or anything like that. But I will ask that you offer a heartfelt apology to the Mother of God for besmirching her name and reputation.

If you’re willing to accept this challenge, then we’ll set up some ground rules. Think well and carefully before accepting or rejecting this wager – my eternal soul is at stake. (Ez. 3:18)

Ez. 3:18 is where G_D says that if you know someone is doing wrong and you don’t try to stop him, his sin is on your soul.

I have no doubt that my membership in the Catholic Church is not in danger. I’m not going to accept her use of any source that accepts a priori that Marian apparitions are demonic. She’s going to have to read about the apparition, the circumstances, the messages, and the fruits thereof. Only after that will she be able to use any Protestant sources, and then she had better be able to back up whatever that person says.

Still, I’m praying to discern is this is simply an act of vanity on my part. So, what should I do?
 
Muzhik said:
Greetings! I’m a member of an End-Times forum where I’m the token Catholic. There is one member who is very up-front with her anti-Catholic beliefs, esp. that ALL Marian apparitions are demonic, a result of a “seducing spirit”, since they are not biblical.

Today I decided to throw down the gauntlet and get this at least partially settled. Here is the message I’m planning on posting, and I’d like everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut on it:

I’d like to settle this issue once and for all. You keep claiming that Marian apparitions are demonic and “seducing spirits”. Fine. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires me to believe that Mary or Jesus or any of the saints have appeared to anyone in the past 2,000 years. I believe because I have found faith and guidance and hope in these appearances, blessings that I do not believe I would have recv’d if these events had been the work of the devil. So I am going to make a wager with you, a wager for a very particular, very personal item:

My soul.

If in fact all these approved Marian apparitions through the centuries have been demonic manifestations geared towards seducing the faithful from their faith in Christ Jesus, then I am placing my soul in danger by believing them. In fact, if they are demonic then I have cut myself off from the Body of Christ through my belief in them, since I cannot be a member of the body yet hold on to something that is corrupt and corrupting. If these apparitions are demonic then there should be SOMETHING in the apparitions or the messages that will be proof of this. It should be so obvious that you should be able to find this proof and expose this for the evil it is by using the circumstances of the apparition and the messages of the apparition, i.e., something the apparition said or did shows its demonic origin.

So this is the challenge: I will give you 4 apparitions (3 of them modern). You pick one, research it, and provide the proof that it is demonic in origin. If you are able to do this, I will leave the Catholic Church.

In turn, if you are NOT able to provide proof, then I’m not going to demand that you convert or anything like that. But I will ask that you offer a heartfelt apology to the Mother of God for besmirching her name and reputation.

If you’re willing to accept this challenge, then we’ll set up some ground rules. Think well and carefully before accepting or rejecting this wager – my eternal soul is at stake. (Ez. 3:18)

Ez. 3:18 is where G_D says that if you know someone is doing wrong and you don’t try to stop him, his sin is on your soul.

I have no doubt that my membership in the Catholic Church is not in danger. I’m not going to accept her use of any source that accepts a priori that Marian apparitions are demonic. She’s going to have to read about the apparition, the circumstances, the messages, and the fruits thereof. Only after that will she be able to use any Protestant sources, and then she had better be able to back up whatever that person says.

Still, I’m praying to discern is this is simply an act of vanity on my part. So, what should I do?
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Muzhik,It is not surprising the number of Protestants that believe all Marian apparitions are demonic.Very few even believe Mary was sinless during her life.
 
I agree with you on the points that you must try and stop this person from her heretical beliefs if you can, and that by belonging to the Catholic Church you are wagering your soul on all that she teaches as true. However, I would change the last part of it from where you offer to leave the Catholic Church if she provides proof. I say this for two reasons: one, Satan may try to block your clarity of thinking so that some misguided “proof” she offers seems to make sense; two, it makes it seem as if your Catholic faith is something you’re willing to wager with someone as part of a “bet” on a forum. If I were to be in your position, I would change the post to describe more of how you’re betting your soul by belonging to the Catholic Church and believing these things. This would be more of a strong and heartfelt testimony, rather than a bet that may not only have possible negative consequences, but also has the potential to make this other poster (presumably mistakenly) think that you don’t keep your faith any more strongly than a “sure thing” horse racing bet.

My prayers are with you and with this woman for her conversion to the entirety of the truth of Christ.
 
amitmshanker said:
I agree with you on the points that you must try and stop this person from her heretical beliefs if you can, and that by belonging to the Catholic Church you are wagering your soul on all that she teaches as true. However, I would change the last part of it from where you offer to leave the Catholic Church if she provides proof. I say this for two reasons: one, Satan may try to block your clarity of thinking so that some misguided “proof” she offers seems to make sense; two, it makes it seem as if your Catholic faith is something you’re willing to wager with someone as part of a “bet” on a forum. If I were to be in your position, I would change the post to describe more of how you’re betting your soul by belonging to the Catholic Church and believing these things. This would be more of a strong and heartfelt testimony, rather than a bet that may not only have possible negative consequences, but also has the potential to make this other poster (presumably mistakenly) think that you don’t keep your faith any more strongly than a “sure thing” horse racing bet.

My prayers are with you and with this woman for her conversion to the entirety of the truth of Christ.
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I agree with you. Betting one’s soul and saying they would leave the Church is pretty stupid way to go about trying to convince anyone.
The OP should simply ask the claimant to provide proof to back up her claim which we can then discuss. If she cannot then she’s spouting hot air. The onus is not on us to refute a baseless claim.
 
Heh. I read the thread title and “The Devil and Daniel Webster” sprang to mind for some reason.

Having said that…never make a bet you ain’t prepared to lose…
 
Leave out the whole wagering of your soul bit. It’s overly dramatic and doesn’t help.
You can sincerely tell her that you want only the Truth of God in your life, and that if she is able to show you the evidence you asked for, then you will honestly consider it and follow the Holy Spirit’s guidance. You can also tell her that you expect the same from her. Then, provide an apparition if you wish and ask her to show you what is demonic about it.
 
ahs said:
Leave out the whole wagering of your soul bit. It’s overly dramatic and doesn’t help.
You can sincerely tell her that you want only the Truth of God in your life, and that if she is able to show you the evidence you asked for, then you will honestly consider it and follow the Holy Spirit’s guidance. You can also tell her that you expect the same from her. Then, provide an apparition if you wish and ask her to show you what is demonic about it.
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I agree - make no wager. This in itself is seen by certain protestant groups as, at least sinful, if not downright “demonic”.
I believe it would simply be a hindrance and would not help. It would simply play into the hands of this persons Anti-Catholic feelings

Peace
James
 
Following out of interest. I agree with the above posters. I would add that it doesn’t look very… I guess professional to get melodramatic, regardless of how important the issue is to you. I started two Marian devotions recently, a daily “decade” of the Seven Sorrows chaplet and the First Five Saturdays devotion. Perhaps this is just the culture I grew up in, but I was always raised never to insult the mother of someone I consider my best friend. I’m sure Jesus is much more defensive of His mother than even I would be of mine. 😃

I can’t help but feel a lot of pity for those who claim to love Jesus SO much but have no love for His mother. Someone on here has said something like this before, but do they really think any of us heathen Catholics can love Mary more than Jesus does?
 
Your soul’s not yours to wager with. Don’t throw that around casually. 😉
 
I think you should bow out of that anti-Catholic forum before you get any more goofy ideas. :eek:

You see how clever the evil one is? He’s got you willing to wager your soul over this. This is not of the Lord. Get out of there now.
 
Muzhik, whatever are you thinking? Your soul is not yours to wager. You don’t own it, have no bill of sale for it, and do not understand that your soul is a vey treasured gift directly from God upon your conception. If you try to wager what is not yours, but belongs to God, I would consider it a challenge to God as well. Someone said it was “stupid” which is true, but it is also smug and arrogant. The devil has snared many souls from foolish wagers. A wager is a gamble and we just don’t gamble as the Roman soldiers did with the cloths of Christ as He hung on the cross. Make no mistake. The devil is pretty smart, sneaky, and tricky and seems to have you in his gun sites. I hope you change your challenge to a more prayerful resolution. Peace and prayers.

The more I look at your post, the more I dislike it. It isn’t a game where you can set up ground rules. You will not win any brownie points. The other poster may be able counter most of what you believe to be “wrong.” Do you think the devil really want you to win? He and the Protestant believer will do everything possible to make you give up or lose your soul-which would be a theft from God by all involved. Others have said it well, take a hike from that forum.:(:(:(:eek:
 
OK, let’s get a few things clear:


  1. *]I’m **not **wagering my soul. (But I’ll bet that got your attention.) My goal is to get her to actually investigate an apparition. If she is convinced (I believe “convicted by the Holy Spirit” is the usual Evangelical way of putting it) that the RCC is demonically based or influenced and she does NOT try to convince me of my errors, then she will have to answer to G_D for being a poor watchman. I doubt highly she would investigate any apparition as strongly as the Church does.
    *]She’s going to have to use original sources. That means she’s not going to be able to take anything that LaHaye or whomever has written about it and use that as proof, much less evidence. Every apparition has both a promoter/defender and an opposition, often called the Devil’s Advocate. It’s this person’s task to show the apparition is false, and they must provide the evidence and reasoning for their position. This material is available. She should be able to dig it up. That material has already been refuted, otherwise the apparition would not have been approved.
    *]Finally, trying to get her to agree to a discussion won’t work. I’ve been dealing with her for 8 years and people like her for much longer. She’s old school, meaning she has to have the opportunity to win my soul from the clutches of the Church for her to consider the task worth her while. (When I say old school, think of the old time Methodist camp meetings, which weren’t complete without a former Jesuit to describe the evil plans the Church has for their children, or a former nun, just escaped from the convent and ready to tell one and all about the depredations she was forced to endure.

    She is nice otherwise, and has interesting observations on the End Times. If they all were like her, I would not have hung around for 8 years.
 
You clearly said you would make a very personal wager…“my soul.”
 
Muzhik said:
OK, let’s get a few things clear:


  1. *]I’m **not **wagering my soul. (But I’ll bet that got your attention.) My goal is to get her to actually investigate an apparition. If she is convinced (I believe “convicted by the Holy Spirit” is the usual Evangelical way of putting it) that the RCC is demonically based or influenced and she does NOT try to convince me of my errors, then she will have to answer to G_D for being a poor watchman. I doubt highly she would investigate any apparition as strongly as the Church does.
    *]She’s going to have to use original sources. That means she’s not going to be able to take anything that LaHaye or whomever has written about it and use that as proof, much less evidence. Every apparition has both a promoter/defender and an opposition, often called the Devil’s Advocate. It’s this person’s task to show the apparition is false, and they must provide the evidence and reasoning for their position. This material is available. She should be able to dig it up. That material has already been refuted, otherwise the apparition would not have been approved.
    *]Finally, trying to get her to agree to a discussion won’t work. I’ve been dealing with her for 8 years and people like her for much longer. She’s old school, meaning she has to have the opportunity to win my soul from the clutches of the Church for her to consider the task worth her while. (When I say old school, think of the old time Methodist camp meetings, which weren’t complete without a former Jesuit to describe the evil plans the Church has for their children, or a former nun, just escaped from the convent and ready to tell one and all about the depredations she was forced to endure.

    She is nice otherwise, and has interesting observations on the End Times. If they all were like her, I would not have hung around for 8 years.
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  1. I am sorry you cannot see how wrong and arrogant this is. It sounds more like playing a game than trying to evangelize someone. And you DID say that you you were in danger of losing your soul–why on God’s earth would you even think that was proper? Jesus told Satan NOT to put the Lord God to the test. That is, you know, the person you are really testing to see if He will come through for you.

    Oh well, I guess you will have to learn the hard way.
 
Muzhik said:
OK, let’s get a few things clear:
  1. I’m **not **wagering my soul. …
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Here is what you said in your opening post…
I’d like to settle this issue once and for all. You keep claiming that Marian apparitions are demonic and “seducing spirits”. Fine. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that requires me to believe that Mary or Jesus or any of the saints have appeared to anyone in the past 2,000 years. I believe because I have found faith and guidance and hope in these appearances, blessings that I do not believe I would have recv’d if these events had been the work of the devil. **So I am going to make a wager with you, a wager for a very particular, very personal item:
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My soul.
**
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Now you can explain just how it is that you are not (bolding yours) wagering your soul.
And if it is true that you do not intend to wager your soul - having just made the statement that you are - then you are lying to the woman. Another grave sin.

No my dear brother - this is not a good idea.
 
Muzhik said:
that ALL Marian apparitions are demonic, a result of a “seducing spirit”, since they are not biblical.
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First off, does she accept that Mary is the Mother of God? If she does, then there is nothing to prevent her from making herself known to the world is there? The Bible doesn’t prohibit that. The Bible also doesn’t prohibit Jesus from appearing to any of us. Otherwise all of Jesus’s vision and appearances to us could also be deemed demonic by that token.

Secondly how does she prove that the apparition is “demonic”? Only if she has contact with demons and the demons claimed that. Even if that is the case, who could trust the words of a demon? Or she has divine revelation and has been educated that the apparition is demonic. If that is the case, how could she prove that her divine revelation is actually divine and not demonic? Her divine revelation is also not Biblical. Ask her does she go around tagging all apparitions as “seducing spirit” and on on what basis? She must have her evidence to do that otherwise that can be deemed as malicious. Why malicious? Because it is Biblical to have 2 witnesses to accuse someone effectively and in today’s context evidence that it is so. Emotional feelings or ignorance is NOT evidence.

Thirdly, you are well within your rights to discard any proofs she provide if they are not Biblical. Oh she can play with words in the Bible but you can claim that is HER interpretation.

Lastly, wagering is not wise and unnecessary. The whole idea is to gather together to listen to the other view points and defend our faith. Likewise, any assertions she made must be supported. Otherwise, she can be accused of breaking one of the 10 commandments or being uncharitable.

One last thing: ALL generations will call her Blessed. Does she? Is that how she treat the Mother of God by tagging all her appearances as demonic? Get her to explain to her Son. Explain to her Son why she tagged His Mother’s appearances as demonic. Get her to explain that if the Son see fit to show His mum to the world, why is it not within his divine prerogative to do so? And if someone were to masquerade as His mum, how come he didn’t do anything about it? He didn’t know? This “seducing spirit” mocked his mum several times over the centuries and he just let it pass?
 
If they don’t believe, put it into perspective. How is it any different than Jesus own disciples in Jn 6 not believing Him? THAT showed, Not even God in the flesh, talking to them face to face, could convince them of a truth. And they walked away from Him. That’s how powerful free will is that God gave to us ALL. And it’s also what makes us culpable for the choices we make.
 
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Even though I believe in all the approved Marian apparitions, and there is only good in them (otherwise they would not have been approved), I don’t think it’s a very good idea to wager your soul or being Catholic on this…not because the apparitions are not trustworthy, but because what if the person makes a FALSE but a very CONVINCING argument? that could become a temptation… I’m not saying that would happen, but still… I’d take out the part about wagering your soul or leaving the Catholic Church, and just present an invitation to research, and see what she does with it.

I don’t think we should wager our souls in arguments. We just live by faith. It’s a certainty of faith, yes, and like I said I believe the Marian apparitions, but wagering your soul is like playing a game, with something as serious as your eternal salvation and membership in the Catholic Church.

I was once an anti-Marian Protestant. I later became Catholic. While I was Protestant, and really against Marian devotion, one thing that helped me a lot was a Catholic friend who prayed for me and showed me real Christian charity. That probably was one of the things that had the greatest effect.

If you are looking for a prayer to say I’d recommend the Holy Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet.
 
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